8 ms·

Organic is the only route I know of to avoid it. Where did you find organic food with glyphosate?

ianai 8y ago
For instance https://sustainablepulse.com/2018/09/05/bobs-red-mill-faces-class-action-lawsuit-over-glyphosate-weedkiller-contamination/ https://sustainablepulse.com/2018/09/05/bobs-red-mill-faces-... During the search, I saw bobs had a supplier “pre-treating” fields with glyphosate prior to seeding.
- mercutio2 8y ago
  Farmers can’t use glyphosate and be certified organic. Certification can certainly miss things (hence the lawsuit). But I don’t think you can get much closer to glyphosate-free than organic, except by growing your inputs and the final product yourself.
  - devy 8y ago
    The problem is with seeds. Take a look at this: https://www.organicconsumers.org/essays/us-and-monsanto-dominate-global-market-gm-seeds https://www.organicconsumers.org/essays/us-and-monsanto-domi... Monsanto pretty much dominates the global seed market. I'd be surprised if there is still any truly nature wild seeds in human operated farms. It's simply not economical for farmers to farm on wild seeds any more, which is sad. And I don't trust Monsanto for their seeds either.
    - nielsbot 8y ago
      I speculate you could specialize in "heirloom" grains and charge a premium... maybe that's one way around it?
      - ianai 8y ago
        I wonder if there are any attempts to challenge Monsanto? Sure it’d be hard to gain traction, but I suspect there’s a way to do it. Maybe something non traditional like hobbyist farmers growing and selling seeds at home ala Uber.
        yesbabyyes 8y ago
        I encourage you to get going--they are years ahead of you in lobbying. Basically, in the US, Europe, and allied countries, selling your seeds is forbidden (I guess with Bolsanaro, Brazil is next): https://ejatlas.org/featured/seeds https://ejatlas.org/featured/seeds > Seeds are under attack everywhere. Under corporate pressure, laws in many countries increasingly put limitations on what farmers can do with their seeds and with the seeds they buy. Seed saving, a millenia old practice which forms the basis of farming, is increasingly becoming criminalised. > This map gives a picture of of the situation across the world today.
        nielsbot 8y ago
        Man--I wish I could find it, but there was an interesting article about farmers in "Monsanto country" who are getting burned by the commoditization of their product which constantly drives prices down, and other farmers who, despite the other locals telling them they are crazy, are turning to organic farming and charging a premium...
    - throwaway5752 8y ago
      Wait. RoundUp Ready means they are resistant or can metabolize glyphosate, not that they produce it. I'm not going to debate GMO, but this has zero to do with avoiding residual glyphosate in organic produce.
      - devy 8y ago
        If RoundUp and glyphosate-based herbicide studies funded by Monsanto are proven to be fraudulent how could you trust RoundUp Ready?
        throwaway5752 8y ago
        I don't really understand your question. Because you are comparing a chemical with a plant with a gene added to be resistant to that chemical, "trust" is not material. I don't know - and won't debate, since I don't know - if there is any risk to GMOs. I don't know what risks there are to persistent glyphosate or AMPA exposure. But I do know that pesticide resistance is different that pesticide producing in very fundamental ways.
        bluGill 8y ago
        In the worst case of scientific fraud RoundUp Ready has been studied which is more than any other breeding method can claim. Ruby Red Grapefruit? They made that by putting a nuclear radiation source in the middle of an orchard and seeing what happened. Killed some trees, but somewhere was a grapefruit that tastes better. No scientific study was done. Organic - random mutations happen every generation, and none of them have ever been studied.
      - empath75 8y ago
        If they can metabolize glyphosate does that mean it’s present in the plant?
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        wavefunction 8y ago
  - kakarot 8y ago
    Farmers can’t use glyphosate and be certified organic. As a former organic farmer, I can tell you that's incorrect.
    - banach 8y ago
      Can you explain how that works?
      - kakarot 8y ago
        Glysophate is an herbicide. It's only supposed to come into contact with plants you're killing, not plants you're growing for consumption.
        mercutio2 8y ago
        Glyphosate is an herbicide. But food for consumption isn’t certified alone, the whole farm production system is. And farms that have recently used glyphosate on a given plot of land generally cannot be certified organic in the USA. Are you claiming to be a certified organic farmer in the US who has used glyphosate on cropland before planting, been honest with your certifier, and then had your crop successfully certified?
        kakarot 8y ago
        I myself wasn't certified but according to owner of the farm, everything was legit.
        mercutio2 8y ago
        Opposition to synthetic herbicides (in fact, opposition specifically to glyphosate formulations like RoundUp) form the bedrock of the organic movement. To be certified organic, a formerly non-certified field must have been under an organic plan for a minimum of three years, which specifically must not be marketed as organic, and must not use any synthetic herbicides (again, explicitly, glyphosate is called out as the most common herbicide which must be completely eschewed on that plot of land [0]). I can’t tell, from a distance, whether the owner of the farm you worked on was concealing their glyphosate usage from their certifier (surprisingly hard, the certification process is pretty intense), or if this farmer was doing uncertified work which is often marketed as “pesticide free” or “no spray”. Alternatively, some people market crops as “organic (uncertified)”, which doesn’t really mean anything legally, and so a farmer can pretty much do whatever they want as long as they’re not poisoning their customers. [0] https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/GuideForOrganicCropProducers.pdf https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/GuideForO...
kakarot 8y ago
I used to work on an organic farm. We used glysophate because it technically "doesn't touch the plants meant for consumption", therefore it doesn't matter if it's not organic. Wind and soil leeching obviously make this untrue, but legally our product was still "organic" as long as we didn't directly spray our crops.
- wanderr 8y ago
  This doesn't square with the experience my friends on a small family farm had - they could not get organic certified because a neighboring farm was using glysophate. That was admittedly ~16 years ago, so maybe something has changed.
  - kakarot 8y ago
    Interesting. What country/state was this?
    - wanderr 8y ago
      US, Michigan. I assume organic requirements are the same across the US though.

For instance https://sustainablepulse.com/2018/09/05/bobs-red-mill-faces-class-action-lawsuit-over-glyphosate-weedkiller-contamination/ https://sustainablepulse.com/2018/09/05/bobs-red-mill-faces-... During the search, I saw bobs had a supplier “pre-treating” fields with glyphosate prior to seeding.

mercutio2 8y ago
Farmers can’t use glyphosate and be certified organic. Certification can certainly miss things (hence the lawsuit). But I don’t think you can get much closer to glyphosate-free than organic, except by growing your inputs and the final product yourself.
- devy 8y ago
  The problem is with seeds. Take a look at this: https://www.organicconsumers.org/essays/us-and-monsanto-dominate-global-market-gm-seeds https://www.organicconsumers.org/essays/us-and-monsanto-domi... Monsanto pretty much dominates the global seed market. I'd be surprised if there is still any truly nature wild seeds in human operated farms. It's simply not economical for farmers to farm on wild seeds any more, which is sad. And I don't trust Monsanto for their seeds either.
  - nielsbot 8y ago
    I speculate you could specialize in "heirloom" grains and charge a premium... maybe that's one way around it?
    - ianai 8y ago
      I wonder if there are any attempts to challenge Monsanto? Sure it’d be hard to gain traction, but I suspect there’s a way to do it. Maybe something non traditional like hobbyist farmers growing and selling seeds at home ala Uber.
      - yesbabyyes 8y ago
        I encourage you to get going--they are years ahead of you in lobbying. Basically, in the US, Europe, and allied countries, selling your seeds is forbidden (I guess with Bolsanaro, Brazil is next): https://ejatlas.org/featured/seeds https://ejatlas.org/featured/seeds > Seeds are under attack everywhere. Under corporate pressure, laws in many countries increasingly put limitations on what farmers can do with their seeds and with the seeds they buy. Seed saving, a millenia old practice which forms the basis of farming, is increasingly becoming criminalised. > This map gives a picture of of the situation across the world today.
      - nielsbot 8y ago
        Man--I wish I could find it, but there was an interesting article about farmers in "Monsanto country" who are getting burned by the commoditization of their product which constantly drives prices down, and other farmers who, despite the other locals telling them they are crazy, are turning to organic farming and charging a premium...
  - throwaway5752 8y ago
    Wait. RoundUp Ready means they are resistant or can metabolize glyphosate, not that they produce it. I'm not going to debate GMO, but this has zero to do with avoiding residual glyphosate in organic produce.
    - devy 8y ago
      If RoundUp and glyphosate-based herbicide studies funded by Monsanto are proven to be fraudulent how could you trust RoundUp Ready?
      - throwaway5752 8y ago
        I don't really understand your question. Because you are comparing a chemical with a plant with a gene added to be resistant to that chemical, "trust" is not material. I don't know - and won't debate, since I don't know - if there is any risk to GMOs. I don't know what risks there are to persistent glyphosate or AMPA exposure. But I do know that pesticide resistance is different that pesticide producing in very fundamental ways.
      - bluGill 8y ago
        In the worst case of scientific fraud RoundUp Ready has been studied which is more than any other breeding method can claim. Ruby Red Grapefruit? They made that by putting a nuclear radiation source in the middle of an orchard and seeing what happened. Killed some trees, but somewhere was a grapefruit that tastes better. No scientific study was done. Organic - random mutations happen every generation, and none of them have ever been studied.
    - empath75 8y ago
      If they can metabolize glyphosate does that mean it’s present in the plant?
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - wavefunction 8y ago
- kakarot 8y ago
  Farmers can’t use glyphosate and be certified organic. As a former organic farmer, I can tell you that's incorrect.
  - banach 8y ago
    Can you explain how that works?
    - kakarot 8y ago
      Glysophate is an herbicide. It's only supposed to come into contact with plants you're killing, not plants you're growing for consumption.
      - mercutio2 8y ago
        Glyphosate is an herbicide. But food for consumption isn’t certified alone, the whole farm production system is. And farms that have recently used glyphosate on a given plot of land generally cannot be certified organic in the USA. Are you claiming to be a certified organic farmer in the US who has used glyphosate on cropland before planting, been honest with your certifier, and then had your crop successfully certified?
        kakarot 8y ago
        I myself wasn't certified but according to owner of the farm, everything was legit.
        mercutio2 8y ago
        Opposition to synthetic herbicides (in fact, opposition specifically to glyphosate formulations like RoundUp) form the bedrock of the organic movement. To be certified organic, a formerly non-certified field must have been under an organic plan for a minimum of three years, which specifically must not be marketed as organic, and must not use any synthetic herbicides (again, explicitly, glyphosate is called out as the most common herbicide which must be completely eschewed on that plot of land [0]). I can’t tell, from a distance, whether the owner of the farm you worked on was concealing their glyphosate usage from their certifier (surprisingly hard, the certification process is pretty intense), or if this farmer was doing uncertified work which is often marketed as “pesticide free” or “no spray”. Alternatively, some people market crops as “organic (uncertified)”, which doesn’t really mean anything legally, and so a farmer can pretty much do whatever they want as long as they’re not poisoning their customers. [0] https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/GuideForOrganicCropProducers.pdf https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/GuideForO...

kakarot 8y ago

I used to work on an organic farm. We used glysophate because it technically "doesn't touch the plants meant for consumption", therefore it doesn't matter if it's not organic. Wind and soil leeching obviously make this untrue, but legally our product was still "organic" as long as we didn't directly spray our crops.

wanderr 8y ago
This doesn't square with the experience my friends on a small family farm had - they could not get organic certified because a neighboring farm was using glysophate. That was admittedly ~16 years ago, so maybe something has changed.
- kakarot 8y ago
  Interesting. What country/state was this?
  - wanderr 8y ago
    US, Michigan. I assume organic requirements are the same across the US though.