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I was surprised - and dismayed - that the polygraph was still being used and given credence with something as high profile as the Ford/Kavanaugh hearing. I've

I was surprised - and dismayed - that the polygraph was still being used and given credence with something as high profile as the Ford/Kavanaugh hearing. I've long been under the impression that it was commonly understood that the polygraph was fallible. Has this changed?

__blockcipher__ 8y ago
Nothing changed, but I’d estimate >50% of Americans still believe in “lie detectors”. They provide easy points when you don’t have actual evidence to bring forward
- lwansbrough 8y ago
  Over half of Americans believe cloud computing is affected by weather patterns [1]. So ya, I'm sure at least those same people believe in lie detectors. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/people-think-stormy-weather-affects-cloud-computing-2012-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/people-think-stormy-weather-...
  - applecrazy 8y ago
    Side note: the study you cite had the question as "is cloud computing affected by weather patterns?" This finding leads one to believe that nobody actually knows what the cloud actually is, but that is a bit sensationalist: technically data centers can be down due to weather-related power outages.
    - derefr 8y ago
      A charitable reading: if you're aware that "cloud computing involves computers all over the world", but aren't aware that undersea cables carry 99.99% of international Internet traffic, then you might assume that cloud computing involves bouncing your Internet signal off a satellite at some point. Weather can interfere with satellite signals. Same goes for cell service: a lot of people tend to believe that, while your phone just talks to a cell tower, the cell tower is talking to a satellite (rather than to wired backhaul or a microwave link.) A satellite is depicted in all those diagrams of "how cellular networking works", so I don't blame them for this at all!
      - opwieurposiu 8y ago
        Cell towers listen to GPS satellite signals to set their clocks. If GPS stops working, time division multiplexing will soon have problems.
        derefr 8y ago
        True. Though, how soon is "soon" for TDM desync? I think most people, if you asked them to describe how weather affects a cell tower, would describe them as working in basically the same way that Iridium handsets do: "clouds in the sky, signal goes bye." I.e., the signal would be "choppy" on the interval of milliseconds, with packet retransmissions covering it up up to some tolerance level, but failing entirely and instantaneously if the weather was bad enough. I imagine they would think this, even though they know intuitively that cell signals are more robust than that in practice. They don't know why they know that, and they've also been taught something that conflicts with that knowledge, so depending on which order their jumble of thoughts comes to mind, it might go either way. (Also, something I'm curious about, as a tangent: now that atomic clocks are getting cheaper, are cell towers using them to add fault-tolerance to their precise timekeeping requirements, in the way that e.g. undersea-cable head-end switches do?)
    - saalweachter 8y ago
      Colloquially, data centers also have "weather", ie, sporadic events that cause random slowness, network congestion, or scheduling problems on your cloud. When there's bad weather in a data center, you sometimes just have to wait it out and run your jobs another day.
      - tonyarkles 8y ago
        And... clouds: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/08/facebook_cloud_versus_cloud/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/08/facebook_cloud_vers...
    - User23 8y ago
      This is a good example of being too smart for a test question. To your observation: Amazon had a major outage due to hurricane related flooding and a lightning strike back in the mid 2000s.
  - thomaskcr 8y ago
    Um.. I would answer yes to that. Azure was out due to lightning for an entire day when I finally fully gave up on the disaster they call their cloud.
astura 8y ago
Nothing has changed, I don't think laymen ever "commonly understood" the polygraph was fallible. Especially since they are required for some government jobs.
ap_org 8y ago
The U.S. government actively promotes public belief in the pseudoscience of polygraphy, and the press largely plays along.
- smhenderson 8y ago
  And Hollywood as well.
  - jobigoud 8y ago
    Not really though. Every time it's used as a plot device to create suspense but in the end the hero or villain has been trained to beat the polygraph and get away with it. So they actually perpetuates the idea that it's fallible / can be fooled.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      > So they actually perpetuates the idea that it's fallible / can be fooled. By doing that, they also perpetuate the idea that it does work somewhat reliably and to beat it, you need special training.
- thoughtexplorer 8y ago
  Why is the government actively promoting that? As for the press, they only play along if it fits their narrative. During that hearing Fox News framed polygraphs as pseudoscience while CNN was promoting it as evidence. Both sides will just as easily do the opposite the next time depending on what their audience wants to hear.
  - 3JPLW 8y ago
    It's a useful interrogation technique, but only if the public believes it works. Example in fiction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgrO_rAaiq0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgrO_rAaiq0
    - 8y ago
new12345 8y ago
What's shocking to me is that in investigations involving the use of polygraph someone(higher officials) were keen on getting desired results out of it, in hope to wrap up investigation the way they want.
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 8y ago
  Why are you shocked? Haven't you read the Mark Twain quote suggesting that statics is used in the same way. This naive reaction is boosting the credibility of the polygraph. I hope the anti-polygraph book isn't full of same reasoning.
rustcharm 8y ago
And it was being used as "evidence" by the side with the much shakier stories.
Diederich 8y ago
The US department of defense still uses the polygraph as an integral part of security clearance screening. I am also dismayed, but not surprised.
- deleted 8y ago
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- deleted 8y ago
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Lazare 8y ago
> I was surprised - and dismayed - that the polygraph was still being used Keep in mind that it was being used here by Ford, not by the FBI or Congress. I think the people who mattered are well aware they don't really work, but is also aware of their potent PR value (thanks to years of bad Hollywood science and cliches police procedurals).
SuoDuanDao 8y ago
I suspected something fishy was up with that the moment Ford mentioned she'd taken a polygraph. Even if it's not commonly understood by the general population (and I'm fairly sure it is) Ford is a psychologist and the hearing was full of lawyers - I'd expect that milieu to be even more informed on the shortcomings of lie detectors than the general population.

__blockcipher__ 8y ago

Nothing changed, but I’d estimate >50% of Americans still believe in “lie detectors”. They provide easy points when you don’t have actual evidence to bring forward

lwansbrough 8y ago
Over half of Americans believe cloud computing is affected by weather patterns [1]. So ya, I'm sure at least those same people believe in lie detectors. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/people-think-stormy-weather-affects-cloud-computing-2012-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/people-think-stormy-weather-...
- applecrazy 8y ago
  Side note: the study you cite had the question as "is cloud computing affected by weather patterns?" This finding leads one to believe that nobody actually knows what the cloud actually is, but that is a bit sensationalist: technically data centers can be down due to weather-related power outages.
  - derefr 8y ago
    A charitable reading: if you're aware that "cloud computing involves computers all over the world", but aren't aware that undersea cables carry 99.99% of international Internet traffic, then you might assume that cloud computing involves bouncing your Internet signal off a satellite at some point. Weather can interfere with satellite signals. Same goes for cell service: a lot of people tend to believe that, while your phone just talks to a cell tower, the cell tower is talking to a satellite (rather than to wired backhaul or a microwave link.) A satellite is depicted in all those diagrams of "how cellular networking works", so I don't blame them for this at all!
    - opwieurposiu 8y ago
      Cell towers listen to GPS satellite signals to set their clocks. If GPS stops working, time division multiplexing will soon have problems.
      - derefr 8y ago
        True. Though, how soon is "soon" for TDM desync? I think most people, if you asked them to describe how weather affects a cell tower, would describe them as working in basically the same way that Iridium handsets do: "clouds in the sky, signal goes bye." I.e., the signal would be "choppy" on the interval of milliseconds, with packet retransmissions covering it up up to some tolerance level, but failing entirely and instantaneously if the weather was bad enough. I imagine they would think this, even though they know intuitively that cell signals are more robust than that in practice. They don't know why they know that, and they've also been taught something that conflicts with that knowledge, so depending on which order their jumble of thoughts comes to mind, it might go either way. (Also, something I'm curious about, as a tangent: now that atomic clocks are getting cheaper, are cell towers using them to add fault-tolerance to their precise timekeeping requirements, in the way that e.g. undersea-cable head-end switches do?)
  - saalweachter 8y ago
    Colloquially, data centers also have "weather", ie, sporadic events that cause random slowness, network congestion, or scheduling problems on your cloud. When there's bad weather in a data center, you sometimes just have to wait it out and run your jobs another day.
    - tonyarkles 8y ago
      And... clouds: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/08/facebook_cloud_versus_cloud/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/08/facebook_cloud_vers...
  - User23 8y ago
    This is a good example of being too smart for a test question. To your observation: Amazon had a major outage due to hurricane related flooding and a lightning strike back in the mid 2000s.
- thomaskcr 8y ago
  Um.. I would answer yes to that. Azure was out due to lightning for an entire day when I finally fully gave up on the disaster they call their cloud.

astura 8y ago

Nothing has changed, I don't think laymen ever "commonly understood" the polygraph was fallible. Especially since they are required for some government jobs.

ap_org 8y ago

The U.S. government actively promotes public belief in the pseudoscience of polygraphy, and the press largely plays along.

smhenderson 8y ago
And Hollywood as well.
- jobigoud 8y ago
  Not really though. Every time it's used as a plot device to create suspense but in the end the hero or villain has been trained to beat the polygraph and get away with it. So they actually perpetuates the idea that it's fallible / can be fooled.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    > So they actually perpetuates the idea that it's fallible / can be fooled. By doing that, they also perpetuate the idea that it does work somewhat reliably and to beat it, you need special training.
thoughtexplorer 8y ago
Why is the government actively promoting that? As for the press, they only play along if it fits their narrative. During that hearing Fox News framed polygraphs as pseudoscience while CNN was promoting it as evidence. Both sides will just as easily do the opposite the next time depending on what their audience wants to hear.
- 3JPLW 8y ago
  It's a useful interrogation technique, but only if the public believes it works. Example in fiction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgrO_rAaiq0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgrO_rAaiq0
  - 8y ago

new12345 8y ago

What's shocking to me is that in investigations involving the use of polygraph someone(higher officials) were keen on getting desired results out of it, in hope to wrap up investigation the way they want.

0xdeadbeefbabe 8y ago
Why are you shocked? Haven't you read the Mark Twain quote suggesting that statics is used in the same way. This naive reaction is boosting the credibility of the polygraph. I hope the anti-polygraph book isn't full of same reasoning.

rustcharm 8y ago

And it was being used as "evidence" by the side with the much shakier stories.

Diederich 8y ago

The US department of defense still uses the polygraph as an integral part of security clearance screening. I am also dismayed, but not surprised.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

Lazare 8y ago

> I was surprised - and dismayed - that the polygraph was still being used Keep in mind that it was being used here by Ford, not by the FBI or Congress. I think the people who mattered are well aware they don't really work, but is also aware of their potent PR value (thanks to years of bad Hollywood science and cliches police procedurals).

SuoDuanDao 8y ago

I suspected something fishy was up with that the moment Ford mentioned she'd taken a polygraph. Even if it's not commonly understood by the general population (and I'm fairly sure it is) Ford is a psychologist and the hearing was full of lawyers - I'd expect that milieu to be even more informed on the shortcomings of lie detectors than the general population.