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Why bother countering a baseless (and bitter and resentful) assertion with an argument? It reminds me of the brexiter voices in England who are furious with Ir

Why bother countering a baseless (and bitter and resentful) assertion with an argument? It reminds me of the brexiter voices in England who are furious with Ireland for having the temerity to stand up for what the UK has already agreed on - the NI backstop. It's a chauvinist sense of entitlement and over-confidence that has to some degree led to the brexit mess.

coldtea 8y ago
>Why bother countering a baseless (and bitter and resentful) assertion with an argument? What exactly is "baseless"? That Scotland has a long-term rivalry with England? Last time I checked, 45% voted in favor to break up with England in the Scottish referendum -- does the 55/45 result point to some friendly buddies? Or that Germany has disproportionate control of EU policy to its population/economy? That's a lively matter of scholar and political debate in the Eurozone, not some "baseless" opinion. (By the way, do you know that EU project (with its ECSC predecessors) was started with the explicit -- and openly stated -- goal of constraining Germany, from people that have actually lived the damage its national ambitions have done twice in the continent e.g. [1]) [1] https://carleton.ca/ces/eulearning/history/moving-to-integration/the-european-coal-and-steel-community/ https://carleton.ca/ces/eulearning/history/moving-to-integra...
- JetSetWilly 8y ago
  Your argument is baseless because you are leaping to there being some connection between a "rivalry" and the brexit referendum results. In fact, even if you look only at people who voted "no" in the Scottish referendum, the great majority of them were Remain voters in the brexit referendum. For "yes" voters there was actually less of a Remain majority than for No voters. So much for your theory of rabid Scottish nationalism and England-hatred causing the result! There's some irony in you complaining about the EU being dominated by bigger countries, while expecting Scotland to just "like it or lump it" when it comes to decisions made by England in the UK. At least in the EU you have a veto - in the UK? No such luck.
  - nmeofthestate 8y ago
    I think they project their worldview onto the EU. The UK is a collection of countries where the large country decides what happens. So therefore the EU is painted in the same cynical terms. That's not to say that large EU countries don't have more clout, but the EU is not a Franco-German empire as some like to imagine.
- nmeofthestate 8y ago
  You're making a mistake in your analysis of the independence referendum result that's colouring your views on Scotland. People can want independence without it being a personal slight against you. In fact, the vast majority of people in the world are in favour of their country existing. Don't take it so personally.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >People can want independence without it being a personal slight against you I'm not sure what that means. I'm pro Scottish independence, and I would even be pro Brexit (given the state of democracy in EU).
logifail 8y ago
>> for what the UK has already agreed on Both sides would do well to remember that "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed." [0] [0] Press statement by Michel Barnier http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-18-2161_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-18-2161_en.ht...
- nmeofthestate 8y ago
  And currently it looks like we're headed for "nothing is agreed" - No Deal. Nightmare.

coldtea 8y ago

>Why bother countering a baseless (and bitter and resentful) assertion with an argument? What exactly is "baseless"? That Scotland has a long-term rivalry with England? Last time I checked, 45% voted in favor to break up with England in the Scottish referendum -- does the 55/45 result point to some friendly buddies? Or that Germany has disproportionate control of EU policy to its population/economy? That's a lively matter of scholar and political debate in the Eurozone, not some "baseless" opinion. (By the way, do you know that EU project (with its ECSC predecessors) was started with the explicit -- and openly stated -- goal of constraining Germany, from people that have actually lived the damage its national ambitions have done twice in the continent e.g. [1]) [1] https://carleton.ca/ces/eulearning/history/moving-to-integration/the-european-coal-and-steel-community/ https://carleton.ca/ces/eulearning/history/moving-to-integra...

JetSetWilly 8y ago
Your argument is baseless because you are leaping to there being some connection between a "rivalry" and the brexit referendum results. In fact, even if you look only at people who voted "no" in the Scottish referendum, the great majority of them were Remain voters in the brexit referendum. For "yes" voters there was actually less of a Remain majority than for No voters. So much for your theory of rabid Scottish nationalism and England-hatred causing the result! There's some irony in you complaining about the EU being dominated by bigger countries, while expecting Scotland to just "like it or lump it" when it comes to decisions made by England in the UK. At least in the EU you have a veto - in the UK? No such luck.
- nmeofthestate 8y ago
  I think they project their worldview onto the EU. The UK is a collection of countries where the large country decides what happens. So therefore the EU is painted in the same cynical terms. That's not to say that large EU countries don't have more clout, but the EU is not a Franco-German empire as some like to imagine.
nmeofthestate 8y ago
You're making a mistake in your analysis of the independence referendum result that's colouring your views on Scotland. People can want independence without it being a personal slight against you. In fact, the vast majority of people in the world are in favour of their country existing. Don't take it so personally.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >People can want independence without it being a personal slight against you I'm not sure what that means. I'm pro Scottish independence, and I would even be pro Brexit (given the state of democracy in EU).

logifail 8y ago

>> for what the UK has already agreed on Both sides would do well to remember that "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed." [0] [0] Press statement by Michel Barnier http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-18-2161_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-18-2161_en.ht...

nmeofthestate 8y ago
And currently it looks like we're headed for "nothing is agreed" - No Deal. Nightmare.