4 ms·

Utter rubbish.

coldtea 8y ago
Well, that's not an argument. Do you disagree with the first, or the second argument? Because both have had lots of corroborating evidence (including centuries of history and a whole recent-ish referendum to split Scotland into its own state for the first, and tons of scholarly debate and criticism against German control of EU policies and ECB in the NYT, Guardian, Economist, etc).
- nmeofthestate 8y ago
  Or alternatively, people in Scotland voted to stay in the EU because they want to stay in the EU, and it wasn't just to spite the English (around whom the world revolves, apparently). This meshes with public opinion polling in Scotland where people say they want to stay in the EU. Sometimes the simple explanation that isn't based on all the foreigners hating you is the correct one.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >Or alternatively, people in Scotland voted to stay in the EU because they want to stay in the EU, and it wasn't just to spite the English (around whom the world revolves, apparently). Sure, whether they want to "stay in the EU" or not is also based on their relation to their English neighbors, not to some magical enlightened political culture that Scotts have and the lowly English masses lack.
    - nmeofthestate 8y ago
      Dear me. I will quietly bow out of this discussion, as it seems to be turning into somebody giving voice to their own strong feelings about the "Scotts". Too much heat, not much light.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        That's a condescending non-response. I don't seem to be the only "somebody" with an opinion about the cultural and historical differences and power plays between the Scotts and the English playing a role: https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/eight-reasons-scotland-is-more-remain-and-what-will-happen-if-its-dragged-out https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/eight-reasons-s... The alternative is what? One or the other ethnicity having the unique capacity of rational thinking to vote Brexit/Bremain? Or one side for some reason having some very different actual benefit or harm from the EU?
        nmeofthestate 8y ago
        The Scotts are a family of people with the surname Scott. The Scots are the people of the country Scotland. Since you know why the Scots voted Remain, I'm surprised you keep making that mistake.
        coldtea 8y ago
        Are you also surprised to learn that not everybody on HN is a native english speaker (and could make the mistake easily since the people are also called "Scottish" with double ts)? Or just wanted to add another ad-hominem to the non-responses?
nmeofthestate 8y ago
Why bother countering a baseless (and bitter and resentful) assertion with an argument? It reminds me of the brexiter voices in England who are furious with Ireland for having the temerity to stand up for what the UK has already agreed on - the NI backstop. It's a chauvinist sense of entitlement and over-confidence that has to some degree led to the brexit mess.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >Why bother countering a baseless (and bitter and resentful) assertion with an argument? What exactly is "baseless"? That Scotland has a long-term rivalry with England? Last time I checked, 45% voted in favor to break up with England in the Scottish referendum -- does the 55/45 result point to some friendly buddies? Or that Germany has disproportionate control of EU policy to its population/economy? That's a lively matter of scholar and political debate in the Eurozone, not some "baseless" opinion. (By the way, do you know that EU project (with its ECSC predecessors) was started with the explicit -- and openly stated -- goal of constraining Germany, from people that have actually lived the damage its national ambitions have done twice in the continent e.g. [1]) [1] https://carleton.ca/ces/eulearning/history/moving-to-integration/the-european-coal-and-steel-community/ https://carleton.ca/ces/eulearning/history/moving-to-integra...
  - JetSetWilly 8y ago
    Your argument is baseless because you are leaping to there being some connection between a "rivalry" and the brexit referendum results. In fact, even if you look only at people who voted "no" in the Scottish referendum, the great majority of them were Remain voters in the brexit referendum. For "yes" voters there was actually less of a Remain majority than for No voters. So much for your theory of rabid Scottish nationalism and England-hatred causing the result! There's some irony in you complaining about the EU being dominated by bigger countries, while expecting Scotland to just "like it or lump it" when it comes to decisions made by England in the UK. At least in the EU you have a veto - in the UK? No such luck.
    - nmeofthestate 8y ago

Utter rubbish.

Well, that's not an argument. Do you disagree with the first, or the second argument? Because both have had lots of corroborating evidence (including centuries of history and a whole recent-ish referendum to split Scotland into its own state for the first, and tons of scholarly debate and criticism against German control of EU policies and ECB in the NYT, Guardian, Economist, etc).

nmeofthestate 8y ago
Or alternatively, people in Scotland voted to stay in the EU because they want to stay in the EU, and it wasn't just to spite the English (around whom the world revolves, apparently). This meshes with public opinion polling in Scotland where people say they want to stay in the EU. Sometimes the simple explanation that isn't based on all the foreigners hating you is the correct one.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >Or alternatively, people in Scotland voted to stay in the EU because they want to stay in the EU, and it wasn't just to spite the English (around whom the world revolves, apparently). Sure, whether they want to "stay in the EU" or not is also based on their relation to their English neighbors, not to some magical enlightened political culture that Scotts have and the lowly English masses lack.
  - nmeofthestate 8y ago
    Dear me. I will quietly bow out of this discussion, as it seems to be turning into somebody giving voice to their own strong feelings about the "Scotts". Too much heat, not much light.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      That's a condescending non-response. I don't seem to be the only "somebody" with an opinion about the cultural and historical differences and power plays between the Scotts and the English playing a role: https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/eight-reasons-scotland-is-more-remain-and-what-will-happen-if-its-dragged-out https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/eight-reasons-s... The alternative is what? One or the other ethnicity having the unique capacity of rational thinking to vote Brexit/Bremain? Or one side for some reason having some very different actual benefit or harm from the EU?
      - nmeofthestate 8y ago
        The Scotts are a family of people with the surname Scott. The Scots are the people of the country Scotland. Since you know why the Scots voted Remain, I'm surprised you keep making that mistake.
        coldtea 8y ago
        Are you also surprised to learn that not everybody on HN is a native english speaker (and could make the mistake easily since the people are also called "Scottish" with double ts)? Or just wanted to add another ad-hominem to the non-responses?

nmeofthestate 8y ago

Why bother countering a baseless (and bitter and resentful) assertion with an argument? It reminds me of the brexiter voices in England who are furious with Ireland for having the temerity to stand up for what the UK has already agreed on - the NI backstop. It's a chauvinist sense of entitlement and over-confidence that has to some degree led to the brexit mess.

coldtea 8y ago
>Why bother countering a baseless (and bitter and resentful) assertion with an argument? What exactly is "baseless"? That Scotland has a long-term rivalry with England? Last time I checked, 45% voted in favor to break up with England in the Scottish referendum -- does the 55/45 result point to some friendly buddies? Or that Germany has disproportionate control of EU policy to its population/economy? That's a lively matter of scholar and political debate in the Eurozone, not some "baseless" opinion. (By the way, do you know that EU project (with its ECSC predecessors) was started with the explicit -- and openly stated -- goal of constraining Germany, from people that have actually lived the damage its national ambitions have done twice in the continent e.g. [1]) [1] https://carleton.ca/ces/eulearning/history/moving-to-integration/the-european-coal-and-steel-community/ https://carleton.ca/ces/eulearning/history/moving-to-integra...
- JetSetWilly 8y ago
  Your argument is baseless because you are leaping to there being some connection between a "rivalry" and the brexit referendum results. In fact, even if you look only at people who voted "no" in the Scottish referendum, the great majority of them were Remain voters in the brexit referendum. For "yes" voters there was actually less of a Remain majority than for No voters. So much for your theory of rabid Scottish nationalism and England-hatred causing the result! There's some irony in you complaining about the EU being dominated by bigger countries, while expecting Scotland to just "like it or lump it" when it comes to decisions made by England in the UK. At least in the EU you have a veto - in the UK? No such luck.
  - nmeofthestate 8y ago