5 ms·

This is a bit pedantic, I know, but you mean the UK, not England. It's the UK that's leaving the EU, not just England.

smackay 8y ago
That kind of depends on how the political process plays out north of the border where 65% (or thereabouts) of the population voted to remain within the EU.
- nmeofthestate 8y ago
  Speaking as someone who wants Scoland to become independent and join the EU, at this point it seems clear that the UK is leaving the EU (or - very small possibility - the UK is not leaving the EU).
- hrnnnnnn 8y ago
  Can't remember the percentage, but I do remember that every single polling area in Scotland voted remain.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    That's because they a) voted based on their rivalry with the English, b) think they'll do better as a tiny independent country within an EU where the big dogs do whatever they please (or, rather, a single big dog with its satellites, even France plays by their agenda).
    - nmeofthestate 8y ago
      Utter rubbish.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        Well, that's not an argument. Do you disagree with the first, or the second argument? Because both have had lots of corroborating evidence (including centuries of history and a whole recent-ish referendum to split Scotland into its own state for the first, and tons of scholarly debate and criticism against German control of EU policies and ECB in the NYT, Guardian, Economist, etc).
        nmeofthestate 8y ago
        Or alternatively, people in Scotland voted to stay in the EU because they want to stay in the EU, and it wasn't just to spite the English (around whom the world revolves, apparently). This meshes with public opinion polling in Scotland where people say they want to stay in the EU. Sometimes the simple explanation that isn't based on all the foreigners hating you is the correct one.
        coldtea 8y ago
        >Or alternatively, people in Scotland voted to stay in the EU because they want to stay in the EU, and it wasn't just to spite the English (around whom the world revolves, apparently). Sure, whether they want to "stay in the EU" or not is also based on their relation to their English neighbors, not to some magical enlightened political culture that Scotts have and the lowly English masses lack.
        nmeofthestate 8y ago
        Dear me. I will quietly bow out of this discussion, as it seems to be turning into somebody giving voice to their own strong feelings about the "Scotts". Too much heat, not much light.
        coldtea 8y ago
        That's a condescending non-response. I don't seem to be the only "somebody" with an opinion about the cultural and historical differences and power plays between the Scotts and the English playing a role: https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/eight-reasons-scotland-is-more-remain-and-what-will-happen-if-its-dragged-out https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/eight-reasons-s... The alternative is what? One or the other ethnicity having the unique capacity of rational thinking to vote Brexit/Bremain? Or one side for some reason having some very different actual benefit or harm from the EU?
        nmeofthestate 8y ago
      - nmeofthestate 8y ago
        Why bother countering a baseless (and bitter and resentful) assertion with an argument? It reminds me of the brexiter voices in England who are furious with Ireland for having the temerity to stand up for what the UK has already agreed on - the NI backstop. It's a chauvinist sense of entitlement and over-confidence that has to some degree led to the brexit mess.
        coldtea 8y ago
        >Why bother countering a baseless (and bitter and resentful) assertion with an argument? What exactly is "baseless"? That Scotland has a long-term rivalry with England? Last time I checked, 45% voted in favor to break up with England in the Scottish referendum -- does the 55/45 result point to some friendly buddies? Or that Germany has disproportionate control of EU policy to its population/economy? That's a lively matter of scholar and political debate in the Eurozone, not some "baseless" opinion. (By the way, do you know that EU project (with its ECSC predecessors) was started with the explicit -- and openly stated -- goal of constraining Germany, from people that have actually lived the damage its national ambitions have done twice in the continent e.g. [1]) [1] https://carleton.ca/ces/eulearning/history/moving-to-integration/the-european-coal-and-steel-community/ https://carleton.ca/ces/eulearning/history/moving-to-integra...
        JetSetWilly 8y ago
        Your argument is baseless because you are leaping to there being some connection between a "rivalry" and the brexit referendum results. In fact, even if you look only at people who voted "no" in the Scottish referendum, the great majority of them were Remain voters in the brexit referendum. For "yes" voters there was actually less of a Remain majority than for No voters. So much for your theory of rabid Scottish nationalism and England-hatred causing the result! There's some irony in you complaining about the EU being dominated by bigger countries, while expecting Scotland to just "like it or lump it" when it comes to decisions made by England in the UK. At least in the EU you have a veto - in the UK? No such luck.
        nmeofthestate 8y ago
    - oblio 8y ago
      I keep hearing this, but small European countries are doing pretty well. If anything, it's bigger countries such as France, Spain, Italy that are having problems, because they're not nimble enough.
    - contravariant 8y ago
      Well they'd also just decided to stay with England precisely to avoid the kind of problems a Brexit would bring them.
    - Jaruzel 8y ago
      Scotland voted remain due to several major factors, the main ones being: 1) SNP have their own agenda to get Scotland independent... 2) ...and the SNP believe that keeping the UK in the EU will make it easier for Scotland to become independent AND remain an EU member at a later date (not true btw, they would have to re-apply regardless). 3) Rural Scotland depends on EU subsidies for farming, and losing them would mean major economic problems for them. 4) An independent Scotland without EU support, is not economically viable.
      - _Understated_ 8y ago
        I thought I'd reply (being a Scot and living in Scotland I see th propaganda first-hand). 1 - They seem to be playing their cards close to their chest rignt now as I believe people are being turned off by the independence thing. I'm sure there were figures earlier in the year from polls saying two thirds don't want it now. Anyway, we voted already 2 - I agree. The EU have been quite clear on this. Also, I believe a few countries have said they're gonna scupper the vote anyway and not let Scotland in. Don't blame them... 3 - It's about £5bn I believe. This is gonna hurt. I suppose it means we have to pay more for our produce. 4 - This is the real reason I am commenting. See below. I was at an SNP meeting in 2017 at Prestwick Airport and they wanted to talk about business post-Brexit. They talked shite for the most part: I mean that there were no answers in what they were saying. It was more about laying the boot into the Tory gov. However, I asked them a question that they couldn't answer - SNP's own figures show a £12Bn deficit that is being "funded" by the UK Gov at the moment and as soon as we leave the UK we are now responsible for that £12Bn ourselves. Their own figures also showed that post-Brexit Scotland will be hit with another £8bn shortfall. That's £20Bn - The largest deficit of any OECD country. Basically Scotland will be flung into the dark ages on day one of independence. So, I asked them what was their plan to fix this? They stood up and said they can't give an answer until the UK Gov confirm the figures... despite them throwing the figures around and blaming the UK Gov. Needless to say I took issue with that and gave them a hard time about it but they didn't budge on their answer. Not sure why I posted this but I thought a bit of context would be good. Edit - Grammar
        Jaruzel 8y ago
    - nmeofthestate 8y ago
      Jaruzel, I can't reply directly to you, but in fact a majority of all party supporters in Scotland voted Remain, so an analysis that focuses entirely on SNP strategy (whether true or not - I have issues with it) isn't going to explain it. The most Leave-heavy party was the Conservative and Unionist party, but I believe they still voted Remain.
      - Jaruzel 8y ago
        Maybe I was a bit heavy on the SNP influence as I have many family members in Scotland (from Borders, to the Islands) and they are all anti SNP. Regardless, my points about Scotland not being economically independent without EU subsidies still stands.
        nmeofthestate 8y ago
        Really the problem is trade barriers. Independence is much easier if the rest of the British Isles are in a Single Market and Customs Union. In fact Scotland would likely be a net contributor to the EU, given its GDP, so it's not an issue of EU subsidies. That is probably the weakest part of your analysis.
    - smcl 8y ago
      It's clear that you're trying to call Scots primitive, prejudiced and motivated purely by spite. Really you're just revealing your own prejudices.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        A people voting while considering historical relationships with England, modern power relations, etc, is not "spite". Nor is it primitive. If someone believes relationship with England didn't factor out in the Scottish remain vote they are probably deluded.
        smcl 8y ago
        There's only one deluded person in this exchange pal, and it certainly is not me.
  - chupasaurus 8y ago
    That was a certain "Goodbye Union Jack" thought.
dijit 8y ago
If you look at the vote, it does seem like it is "england' that wants to leave though. </pedantry>
- johneth 8y ago
  and Wales.

That kind of depends on how the political process plays out north of the border where 65% (or thereabouts) of the population voted to remain within the EU.

nmeofthestate 8y ago
Speaking as someone who wants Scoland to become independent and join the EU, at this point it seems clear that the UK is leaving the EU (or - very small possibility - the UK is not leaving the EU).
hrnnnnnn 8y ago
Can't remember the percentage, but I do remember that every single polling area in Scotland voted remain.
- coldtea 8y ago
  That's because they a) voted based on their rivalry with the English, b) think they'll do better as a tiny independent country within an EU where the big dogs do whatever they please (or, rather, a single big dog with its satellites, even France plays by their agenda).
  - nmeofthestate 8y ago
    Utter rubbish.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      Well, that's not an argument. Do you disagree with the first, or the second argument? Because both have had lots of corroborating evidence (including centuries of history and a whole recent-ish referendum to split Scotland into its own state for the first, and tons of scholarly debate and criticism against German control of EU policies and ECB in the NYT, Guardian, Economist, etc).
      - nmeofthestate 8y ago
        Or alternatively, people in Scotland voted to stay in the EU because they want to stay in the EU, and it wasn't just to spite the English (around whom the world revolves, apparently). This meshes with public opinion polling in Scotland where people say they want to stay in the EU. Sometimes the simple explanation that isn't based on all the foreigners hating you is the correct one.
        coldtea 8y ago
        >Or alternatively, people in Scotland voted to stay in the EU because they want to stay in the EU, and it wasn't just to spite the English (around whom the world revolves, apparently). Sure, whether they want to "stay in the EU" or not is also based on their relation to their English neighbors, not to some magical enlightened political culture that Scotts have and the lowly English masses lack.
        nmeofthestate 8y ago
        Dear me. I will quietly bow out of this discussion, as it seems to be turning into somebody giving voice to their own strong feelings about the "Scotts". Too much heat, not much light.
        coldtea 8y ago
        That's a condescending non-response. I don't seem to be the only "somebody" with an opinion about the cultural and historical differences and power plays between the Scotts and the English playing a role: https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/eight-reasons-scotland-is-more-remain-and-what-will-happen-if-its-dragged-out https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/eight-reasons-s... The alternative is what? One or the other ethnicity having the unique capacity of rational thinking to vote Brexit/Bremain? Or one side for some reason having some very different actual benefit or harm from the EU?
        nmeofthestate 8y ago
    - nmeofthestate 8y ago
      Why bother countering a baseless (and bitter and resentful) assertion with an argument? It reminds me of the brexiter voices in England who are furious with Ireland for having the temerity to stand up for what the UK has already agreed on - the NI backstop. It's a chauvinist sense of entitlement and over-confidence that has to some degree led to the brexit mess.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        >Why bother countering a baseless (and bitter and resentful) assertion with an argument? What exactly is "baseless"? That Scotland has a long-term rivalry with England? Last time I checked, 45% voted in favor to break up with England in the Scottish referendum -- does the 55/45 result point to some friendly buddies? Or that Germany has disproportionate control of EU policy to its population/economy? That's a lively matter of scholar and political debate in the Eurozone, not some "baseless" opinion. (By the way, do you know that EU project (with its ECSC predecessors) was started with the explicit -- and openly stated -- goal of constraining Germany, from people that have actually lived the damage its national ambitions have done twice in the continent e.g. [1]) [1] https://carleton.ca/ces/eulearning/history/moving-to-integration/the-european-coal-and-steel-community/ https://carleton.ca/ces/eulearning/history/moving-to-integra...
        JetSetWilly 8y ago
        Your argument is baseless because you are leaping to there being some connection between a "rivalry" and the brexit referendum results. In fact, even if you look only at people who voted "no" in the Scottish referendum, the great majority of them were Remain voters in the brexit referendum. For "yes" voters there was actually less of a Remain majority than for No voters. So much for your theory of rabid Scottish nationalism and England-hatred causing the result! There's some irony in you complaining about the EU being dominated by bigger countries, while expecting Scotland to just "like it or lump it" when it comes to decisions made by England in the UK. At least in the EU you have a veto - in the UK? No such luck.
        nmeofthestate 8y ago
  - oblio 8y ago
    I keep hearing this, but small European countries are doing pretty well. If anything, it's bigger countries such as France, Spain, Italy that are having problems, because they're not nimble enough.
  - contravariant 8y ago
    Well they'd also just decided to stay with England precisely to avoid the kind of problems a Brexit would bring them.
  - Jaruzel 8y ago
    Scotland voted remain due to several major factors, the main ones being: 1) SNP have their own agenda to get Scotland independent... 2) ...and the SNP believe that keeping the UK in the EU will make it easier for Scotland to become independent AND remain an EU member at a later date (not true btw, they would have to re-apply regardless). 3) Rural Scotland depends on EU subsidies for farming, and losing them would mean major economic problems for them. 4) An independent Scotland without EU support, is not economically viable.
    - _Understated_ 8y ago
      I thought I'd reply (being a Scot and living in Scotland I see th propaganda first-hand). 1 - They seem to be playing their cards close to their chest rignt now as I believe people are being turned off by the independence thing. I'm sure there were figures earlier in the year from polls saying two thirds don't want it now. Anyway, we voted already 2 - I agree. The EU have been quite clear on this. Also, I believe a few countries have said they're gonna scupper the vote anyway and not let Scotland in. Don't blame them... 3 - It's about £5bn I believe. This is gonna hurt. I suppose it means we have to pay more for our produce. 4 - This is the real reason I am commenting. See below. I was at an SNP meeting in 2017 at Prestwick Airport and they wanted to talk about business post-Brexit. They talked shite for the most part: I mean that there were no answers in what they were saying. It was more about laying the boot into the Tory gov. However, I asked them a question that they couldn't answer - SNP's own figures show a £12Bn deficit that is being "funded" by the UK Gov at the moment and as soon as we leave the UK we are now responsible for that £12Bn ourselves. Their own figures also showed that post-Brexit Scotland will be hit with another £8bn shortfall. That's £20Bn - The largest deficit of any OECD country. Basically Scotland will be flung into the dark ages on day one of independence. So, I asked them what was their plan to fix this? They stood up and said they can't give an answer until the UK Gov confirm the figures... despite them throwing the figures around and blaming the UK Gov. Needless to say I took issue with that and gave them a hard time about it but they didn't budge on their answer. Not sure why I posted this but I thought a bit of context would be good. Edit - Grammar
      - Jaruzel 8y ago
  - nmeofthestate 8y ago
    Jaruzel, I can't reply directly to you, but in fact a majority of all party supporters in Scotland voted Remain, so an analysis that focuses entirely on SNP strategy (whether true or not - I have issues with it) isn't going to explain it. The most Leave-heavy party was the Conservative and Unionist party, but I believe they still voted Remain.
    - Jaruzel 8y ago
      Maybe I was a bit heavy on the SNP influence as I have many family members in Scotland (from Borders, to the Islands) and they are all anti SNP. Regardless, my points about Scotland not being economically independent without EU subsidies still stands.
      - nmeofthestate 8y ago
        Really the problem is trade barriers. Independence is much easier if the rest of the British Isles are in a Single Market and Customs Union. In fact Scotland would likely be a net contributor to the EU, given its GDP, so it's not an issue of EU subsidies. That is probably the weakest part of your analysis.
  - smcl 8y ago
    It's clear that you're trying to call Scots primitive, prejudiced and motivated purely by spite. Really you're just revealing your own prejudices.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      A people voting while considering historical relationships with England, modern power relations, etc, is not "spite". Nor is it primitive. If someone believes relationship with England didn't factor out in the Scottish remain vote they are probably deluded.
      - smcl 8y ago
        There's only one deluded person in this exchange pal, and it certainly is not me.
- chupasaurus 8y ago
  That was a certain "Goodbye Union Jack" thought.

dijit 8y ago

If you look at the vote, it does seem like it is "england' that wants to leave though. </pedantry>

johneth 8y ago
and Wales.