4 ms·

It would be news to von Ardenne et al to hear that they were Soviet, and their input to Soviets' "pioneering" space travel is at least as important as von Braun

by Fins 8y ago

It would be news to von Ardenne et al to hear that they were Soviet, and their input to Soviets' "pioneering" space travel is at least as important as von Braun's to American space program. (edit: spelling)

avmich 8y ago
Von Braun not only succeeded in getting German researchers to USA, but headed a major space program when the need arose. Participation of German rocket specialists in Soviet space projects was more modest - first, the level of expertise wasn't quite the same as in von Braun's team, then they didn't really collaborate with Soviets as information was going only in one direction. At some point Korolev felt that Germans became less useful than their absence - given that Germans didn't have the feedback from their proposals, how it affects the work of Korolev's team. Then the German group's work was done. So, I don't think von Ardenne - who worked on nuclear projects, not rocketry - or other German participation is as big as what von Braun's team has achieved.
- Fins 8y ago
  Don't forget that while Americans got von Braun and his brains, Soviets got not only von Ardenne (who was quite bright anyway) but also everything from rocket (and other) factories) that wasn't nailed to the floor. Whatever was nailes has been moved together with floors. By all indications, von Ardenne worked on quite a few projects, and it is quite interesting that the Soviet Moon project that ran when Germans were allowed to go home, ended in nothing much more than a few spectacular explosions.
  - avmich 8y ago
    No, Soviet Moon project had a list of successes and firsts and I would estimate was about 80% complete when it was closed. You don't launch a 100+ meter high rocket four times in 1970s, with the fourth time up until to thrust terminating sequence of the first stage, and call it a few spectacular explosions. The list of spinoffs is too numerous to list - Block D derivatives still fly, NK-33s still fly, Proton... Soyuz spacecraft... and it would be hard for one person with level of distrust which Germans had in post-war USSR to affect such a program to a scale of singular importance. Von Ardenne left USSR for East Germany in 1954 when works on - hugely successful - R-7 didn't even start, and Soviet Moon project was closed in 1974 - there definitely was some time to move development ahead.
    - Fins 8y ago
      There certainly was enough time, but they never made it to the moon. These days, though, there is a nice cottage industry of "moon landing was a hoax" experts, with one of main arguments being "hey, even we couldn't make it".
      - avmich 8y ago
        No, the time was rather short. Americans made it by 1969 with almost no time to spare, and they arguably had more both time (USSR started working on the moonshot some years later) and resources (the same team which worked on N-1 also worked on strategic missiles). That's not to mention the whole point of JFK plan - to raise the bar high enough so USSR would be unlikely to get to the finish line first. JFK's advisers calculated time right. The point where we started was that Soviets pioneered the space travel and remained - up no now - comparatively quite good at it. I'd attribute that both to good decisions made at the foundation of the industry - and to lack of commitment to space advancements on the West especially after Moon race and end of Cold War in general.
        Fins 8y ago
        I completely agree with the latter point, but while Americans have no problem admitting that von Braun was instrumental to the US space program, Soviets never even mentioned von Ardenne's name anywhere (just like it has never been mention that Hugo Schmaisser just happened to be a war trophy at the factory where Kalashnikov worked). Of couirse it's not like SOviet space rocketry ewxisted in a vacuum, completely separate from ballistic missiles either. Gagarin's rocket basically was one of the early ICBMs. Once they realized that making copies of B-29 will only get them so far, they threw all the effort into rockets instead. Space program was a side-effect.
        avmich 8y ago
        It was not a secret in USSR that Germans participated in early post-war rocketry works. Boris Chertok - in post-Soviet memoirs - describes works of team of Herman Grottrup. I'm not sure von Ardenne had that much influence on space-related technologies. Soviets rather have hidden their own projects, trying to paint too rosy a picture of a string of successes. Orbit-capable rockets were for a long time being developed for military goals, it was only governments which can afford them and governments had their own justifications. In USA, for example, a lot of military rocket technologies found their way into civilian NASA programs.

by Fins 8y ago

avmich 8y ago

Von Braun not only succeeded in getting German researchers to USA, but headed a major space program when the need arose. Participation of German rocket specialists in Soviet space projects was more modest - first, the level of expertise wasn't quite the same as in von Braun's team, then they didn't really collaborate with Soviets as information was going only in one direction. At some point Korolev felt that Germans became less useful than their absence - given that Germans didn't have the feedback from their proposals, how it affects the work of Korolev's team. Then the German group's work was done. So, I don't think von Ardenne - who worked on nuclear projects, not rocketry - or other German participation is as big as what von Braun's team has achieved.

Fins 8y ago
Don't forget that while Americans got von Braun and his brains, Soviets got not only von Ardenne (who was quite bright anyway) but also everything from rocket (and other) factories) that wasn't nailed to the floor. Whatever was nailes has been moved together with floors. By all indications, von Ardenne worked on quite a few projects, and it is quite interesting that the Soviet Moon project that ran when Germans were allowed to go home, ended in nothing much more than a few spectacular explosions.
- avmich 8y ago
  No, Soviet Moon project had a list of successes and firsts and I would estimate was about 80% complete when it was closed. You don't launch a 100+ meter high rocket four times in 1970s, with the fourth time up until to thrust terminating sequence of the first stage, and call it a few spectacular explosions. The list of spinoffs is too numerous to list - Block D derivatives still fly, NK-33s still fly, Proton... Soyuz spacecraft... and it would be hard for one person with level of distrust which Germans had in post-war USSR to affect such a program to a scale of singular importance. Von Ardenne left USSR for East Germany in 1954 when works on - hugely successful - R-7 didn't even start, and Soviet Moon project was closed in 1974 - there definitely was some time to move development ahead.
  - Fins 8y ago
    There certainly was enough time, but they never made it to the moon. These days, though, there is a nice cottage industry of "moon landing was a hoax" experts, with one of main arguments being "hey, even we couldn't make it".
    - avmich 8y ago
      No, the time was rather short. Americans made it by 1969 with almost no time to spare, and they arguably had more both time (USSR started working on the moonshot some years later) and resources (the same team which worked on N-1 also worked on strategic missiles). That's not to mention the whole point of JFK plan - to raise the bar high enough so USSR would be unlikely to get to the finish line first. JFK's advisers calculated time right. The point where we started was that Soviets pioneered the space travel and remained - up no now - comparatively quite good at it. I'd attribute that both to good decisions made at the foundation of the industry - and to lack of commitment to space advancements on the West especially after Moon race and end of Cold War in general.
      - Fins 8y ago
        I completely agree with the latter point, but while Americans have no problem admitting that von Braun was instrumental to the US space program, Soviets never even mentioned von Ardenne's name anywhere (just like it has never been mention that Hugo Schmaisser just happened to be a war trophy at the factory where Kalashnikov worked). Of couirse it's not like SOviet space rocketry ewxisted in a vacuum, completely separate from ballistic missiles either. Gagarin's rocket basically was one of the early ICBMs. Once they realized that making copies of B-29 will only get them so far, they threw all the effort into rockets instead. Space program was a side-effect.
        avmich 8y ago
        It was not a secret in USSR that Germans participated in early post-war rocketry works. Boris Chertok - in post-Soviet memoirs - describes works of team of Herman Grottrup. I'm not sure von Ardenne had that much influence on space-related technologies. Soviets rather have hidden their own projects, trying to paint too rosy a picture of a string of successes. Orbit-capable rockets were for a long time being developed for military goals, it was only governments which can afford them and governments had their own justifications. In USA, for example, a lot of military rocket technologies found their way into civilian NASA programs.