3 ms·

Sure. If everyone hates your opinion, the obvious step is to start comparing yourself with Galileo. Of course you would get the exact same pushback if you were

Sure. If everyone hates your opinion, the obvious step is to start comparing yourself with Galileo. Of course you would get the exact same pushback if you were wrong, or your ideas potentially harmful. So the two possibilities can't really be distinguished by the reaction alone, making this essay fall on the "unactionable" side of the Paul Graham obvious<->unactionable scale. But when everyone disagrees with me, Bayesian logic tells me that I'm the only one who knows Bayesian logic and probably right.

philwelch 8y ago
One heuristic settled on in "What You Can't Say" is the distinction between ideas that are dismissed for being false or absurd and ideas that are dismissed for being heretical. If you go around saying the Holocaust didn't happen, people will tell you that you're wrong and will point to verifiable evidence in the historic record, and Holocaust denial is ten times as controversial as anything you'll read in Quillette.
- hyperpape 8y ago
  This is not quite right. If you're a holocaust denier, then one in fifty people will intellectually engage with your arguments, and the other 49 will just call you a holocaust denier, and shun you from polite society.* I don't see anything wrong with that. Someone has to read it and respond to it, but I'm fine with being one of the 49. * For the sake of illustration, I omit the fact that 1 or 2 of the 50 might promote your work. P.S. This may read like I'm comparing Quillete to holocaust denial. This is not my intent.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    The tactic I'm seeing more and more of nowadays, is where someone starts talking about something nuanced, like the role of far left and far right breakdowns of the rule of law in the Weimar Republic, then someone else comes in and tries to claim it's something horrible like holocaust denial. It's disturbingly typical for discourse nowadays, and it's shockingly intellectually dishonest. What's even more shocking is the extent to which such illogic is defended by the far left and far right. It's almost like the extremists don't want the center to have a voice and want outrage chaos to predominate instead. (Sarcasm. Of course that's what extremists want.)
  - philwelch 8y ago
    Most people will dismiss absolutely everyone they disagree with reflexively anyway, but the few people who will actually bother to argue with Holocaust deniers, young-earth creationists, etc. do so with facts and evidence, whereas the people who argue in favor of e.g. blank-slate psychology will, at their most charitable, concern-troll you over the social consequences of your ideas.
- kaitai 8y ago
  I don't know much about Quillette, so I just went to read a bunch of articles. A fair number of commenters seem to be posting about, for instance, "Jewish misinformation campaigns" and "jewish desire to destabilize America" (in the comments about "A closer look at anti-white rhetoric", mentioned above). A few other people do argue with the anti-semitism. Anyhow, are you sure that Holocaust denial is ten times as controversial as anything I'll read in Quillette, or is it only... twice as controversial?
  - philwelch 8y ago
    I was talking mostly about the actual content. I virtually never read the comments anywhere on the Internet, aside from a few trusted sources (like HN) where high-quality comments are the point of the site.
    - darpa_escapee 8y ago
      I virtually never see comments about "Jewish misinformation campaigns" or "jewish desire to destabilize America", and I've never browsed Quillette. Is there a reason people are talking about those things on Quillette?
      - philwelch 8y ago
        Posting any content that's outside of the mainstream is a magnet to the fringe, unfortunately. So are internet comment sections. If you've seriously never seen anti-Semitic nonsense on the internet before, I'm going to assume you either never read the comments or are in a left-wing internet bubble (and, even then, you'll still likely run into a different style of anti-Semitic nonsense.)
        darpa_escapee 8y ago
        I don't know, I clicked the Quillette link[1] in this HN comment[2] and there's over a dozen anti-semitic comments. A couple of commenters even went out of their way to write coherently-worded, but disgusting, multi-paragraph anti-semitic rants. I've seen comments like that on Stormfront or, recently, the comments section on Fox News articles. However the dozens of social media groups, mailing lists and forums I'm a member of don't seem to have a problem with anti-semitic conspiracy theories littering their pages. Most of them are academic, tech or humor related and are far from a 'left wing internet bubble' you want to pigeonhole me as being stuck in. What is it about Quillette that attracts such anti-semitic commenters? Is it just something about the article? [1] "A Closer Look at Anti-White Rhetoric" https://quillette.com/2018/08/17/a-closer-look-at-anti-white-rhetoric/ https://quillette.com/2018/08/17/a-closer-look-at-anti-white... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18429602 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18429602

philwelch 8y ago

One heuristic settled on in "What You Can't Say" is the distinction between ideas that are dismissed for being false or absurd and ideas that are dismissed for being heretical. If you go around saying the Holocaust didn't happen, people will tell you that you're wrong and will point to verifiable evidence in the historic record, and Holocaust denial is ten times as controversial as anything you'll read in Quillette.

hyperpape 8y ago
This is not quite right. If you're a holocaust denier, then one in fifty people will intellectually engage with your arguments, and the other 49 will just call you a holocaust denier, and shun you from polite society.* I don't see anything wrong with that. Someone has to read it and respond to it, but I'm fine with being one of the 49. * For the sake of illustration, I omit the fact that 1 or 2 of the 50 might promote your work. P.S. This may read like I'm comparing Quillete to holocaust denial. This is not my intent.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- stcredzero 8y ago
  The tactic I'm seeing more and more of nowadays, is where someone starts talking about something nuanced, like the role of far left and far right breakdowns of the rule of law in the Weimar Republic, then someone else comes in and tries to claim it's something horrible like holocaust denial. It's disturbingly typical for discourse nowadays, and it's shockingly intellectually dishonest. What's even more shocking is the extent to which such illogic is defended by the far left and far right. It's almost like the extremists don't want the center to have a voice and want outrage chaos to predominate instead. (Sarcasm. Of course that's what extremists want.)
- philwelch 8y ago
  Most people will dismiss absolutely everyone they disagree with reflexively anyway, but the few people who will actually bother to argue with Holocaust deniers, young-earth creationists, etc. do so with facts and evidence, whereas the people who argue in favor of e.g. blank-slate psychology will, at their most charitable, concern-troll you over the social consequences of your ideas.
kaitai 8y ago
I don't know much about Quillette, so I just went to read a bunch of articles. A fair number of commenters seem to be posting about, for instance, "Jewish misinformation campaigns" and "jewish desire to destabilize America" (in the comments about "A closer look at anti-white rhetoric", mentioned above). A few other people do argue with the anti-semitism. Anyhow, are you sure that Holocaust denial is ten times as controversial as anything I'll read in Quillette, or is it only... twice as controversial?
- philwelch 8y ago
  I was talking mostly about the actual content. I virtually never read the comments anywhere on the Internet, aside from a few trusted sources (like HN) where high-quality comments are the point of the site.
  - darpa_escapee 8y ago
    I virtually never see comments about "Jewish misinformation campaigns" or "jewish desire to destabilize America", and I've never browsed Quillette. Is there a reason people are talking about those things on Quillette?
    - philwelch 8y ago
      Posting any content that's outside of the mainstream is a magnet to the fringe, unfortunately. So are internet comment sections. If you've seriously never seen anti-Semitic nonsense on the internet before, I'm going to assume you either never read the comments or are in a left-wing internet bubble (and, even then, you'll still likely run into a different style of anti-Semitic nonsense.)
      - darpa_escapee 8y ago
        I don't know, I clicked the Quillette link[1] in this HN comment[2] and there's over a dozen anti-semitic comments. A couple of commenters even went out of their way to write coherently-worded, but disgusting, multi-paragraph anti-semitic rants. I've seen comments like that on Stormfront or, recently, the comments section on Fox News articles. However the dozens of social media groups, mailing lists and forums I'm a member of don't seem to have a problem with anti-semitic conspiracy theories littering their pages. Most of them are academic, tech or humor related and are far from a 'left wing internet bubble' you want to pigeonhole me as being stuck in. What is it about Quillette that attracts such anti-semitic commenters? Is it just something about the article? [1] "A Closer Look at Anti-White Rhetoric" https://quillette.com/2018/08/17/a-closer-look-at-anti-white-rhetoric/ https://quillette.com/2018/08/17/a-closer-look-at-anti-white... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18429602 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18429602