6 ms·

There's a lot of talk about line editors in this thread. From a quick scan of Wikipedia, it seems that 40 cells is about the biggest braille display you can buy

by lukev 16y ago

There's a lot of talk about line editors in this thread. From a quick scan of Wikipedia, it seems that 40 cells is about the biggest braille display you can buy. WTF? Why has nobody invented a full-screen braille display? Is there some reason it's massively more complicated than it seems?

eney 16y ago
I'd love to have a 80x25 braille display. I believe they've been made in the labs. The blocker is the expense.
- lukev 16y ago
  Hm. I smell a really good startup opportunity, if one could build a reproducible design. I know there's a ton of blind people out there... do most of them know or rely upon braille, and would be interested in such a product?
  - eney 16y ago
    Most blind people use speech output. If braille displays were more affordable perhaps more people would use them. But with the cost of 80-cel displays being roughly double 40-cell displays, how could make an affordable multiline display?
    - lukev 16y ago
      I think you'd need a different paradigm. Right now each cell (if I understand the design) is a relatively complex mechanical entity. Scaling a display means scaling the number of cells linearly, which gets expensive fast. But if you rethought the problem and built a sort of generic pixel-field display, only with each pixel being a pin, and a consistent way of activating them (perhaps something like e-ink), you could manufacture arbitrarily large screens with sub-linear cost.
      - eney 16y ago
        Ah yes! A foldable display with nanotech that could make tactile maps and such with different textures. That's what I want.
        gvb 16y ago
        Not quite foldable... How about a single "cell" that is on an X-Y mount (or just X for a simpler single line display). Your finger "sees" only one cell at a time anyway. As you used your finger to "skate" over the surface of the board, the "display" computer would read the X-Y position and drive the pins appropriately for that spot. Back to a one-dimensional (X only) readout with something like a scroll wheel on one side to scroll up and down seems pretty easy and useful. Picture a dot matrix printer where your finger is the "paper". The printhead would need a 2D set of pins, not just a vertical line... hmmm, maybe a vertical line of pins would be adequate in conjunction with the left-right sliding motion. Result: size is limited by the X-Y mechanical accuracy (backlash, rigidity) and cost would scale very well compared to size: one cell's worth of pin drivers for any reasonable size readout. [edit] Per Someone http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1842617 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1842617, a X-only (line) readout with two heads, one for each hand (probably on the same platen) would mimic the Braille best. If you had a force sensor to sense the user pushing +/- in the "Y" dimension, you could use that to "scroll" the line without having to take your hands off the readout.
      - hugs 16y ago
        This might be what you're looking for: "When glass touch screens feel like sandpaper" : http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/innovation/10/08/tesla.touch.disney/index.html?hpt=Sbin http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/innovation/10/08/tesla.touch.di...
    - bilban 16y ago
      When I looked around St Dunstans in Sussex (provides support for the blind and visually impaired), it was suggested that Braille was on the out, which surprised me.
  - jules 16y ago
    What is the market for such a device? How many blind computer users are there? How many blind programmers?
- runjake 16y ago
  Then why not go for an alternative approach? Perhaps a capacitive touch screen with certain subtle audio and haptic feedback? It seems like the mechanical approach current Braille devices use might've jumped the shark, and I wonder if the blind world doesn't need a system that's more easy to do in today's world.
smackfu 16y ago
40 cells is 240 individually actuated pins. 10 lines is 2400. 80 x 25 is 12,000.
- Someone 16y ago
  Most refreshable Braille displays have 8 pins per character. That fits neatly in a byte, and allows for some more characters to show. That is quite a gain, as standard Braille (64 different patterns) doesn't even have separate code points for capitals.
hugs 16y ago
Well, I'm working on a full-screen display. :-) Software demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qnL7479fbU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qnL7479fbU Source: http://github.com/hugs/pinmachine http://github.com/hugs/pinmachine Hardware demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUgbu0cE2-Q http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUgbu0cE2-Q Biggest issues are cost and size. I'm currently at "1977 Apple" stage - a big, expensive, hand-made prototype. But the biggest issue is cost per pin. Also, resolution is an issue... I'm going for "big and expensive" first, then will work on making it small and cheap overtime. I'm working with small dc motors first, but there are plenty of electromechanical tricks to get this down to braille-worthy stuff.
- gsivil 16y ago
  This seems like a project that the MIT media lab would like to put its hands on. Why do not you seek a collaboration.
  - hugs 16y ago
    I'd love to chat with the MIT media lab folks. If you're so inclinded, check out my HN bio and have them contact me via email or twitter. ;-) I haven't sought a collaboration yet, because "pinmachine" is my weekend project -- my time is otherwise filled up working on my startup (saucelabs.com).
- wazoox 16y ago
  I had a thought about it, ideally it would be a pin board (like these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikkjT7ACJME http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikkjT7ACJME ) with solenoids or similar motors on each pin... somewhat similar to core memory too, with a different geometry.
  - hugs 16y ago
    Yup, that's exactly what I'm going for... It'll be really cool when you can program anything to appear. My dream is to make it large enough to render "Han Solo in Carbonite" on this kind of display. :-)
marze 16y ago
Utility vs cost not there. You still need to scan it one line at a time, not like a visual screen where you can see it all at once and focus on what you think will be relevant.
Someone 16y ago
In the USA, that typically is what people can afford. At about 3 character an inch, it also nicely fits below a laptop. In parts of Wesrern Europe, 70 or 80 characters are common, too. I have even seen two-line displays with two times 80 characters. Those are huge, though. Fills-screen is a bit of a holy grail. What prevents it from happening is technology and price. The only reliable technology uses space next to each character for a piezzo-electric actuator. That makes it impossible to make displays that stretch far in two dimensions (that two line display was over an inch high) Also, those actuators are fairly expensive, say $40 per character. production volume is low, so any manufacturer will need 100% or so of margin. Result: 40 characters for a couple of grand. AFAIk, any other technology still suffers from reliability problems. It turns out to be quite hard to make a small reliable actuator with the required force, travel, and resilience to dirt.

by lukev 16y ago

eney 16y ago

I'd love to have a 80x25 braille display. I believe they've been made in the labs. The blocker is the expense.

lukev 16y ago
Hm. I smell a really good startup opportunity, if one could build a reproducible design. I know there's a ton of blind people out there... do most of them know or rely upon braille, and would be interested in such a product?
- eney 16y ago
  Most blind people use speech output. If braille displays were more affordable perhaps more people would use them. But with the cost of 80-cel displays being roughly double 40-cell displays, how could make an affordable multiline display?
  - lukev 16y ago
    I think you'd need a different paradigm. Right now each cell (if I understand the design) is a relatively complex mechanical entity. Scaling a display means scaling the number of cells linearly, which gets expensive fast. But if you rethought the problem and built a sort of generic pixel-field display, only with each pixel being a pin, and a consistent way of activating them (perhaps something like e-ink), you could manufacture arbitrarily large screens with sub-linear cost.
    - eney 16y ago
      Ah yes! A foldable display with nanotech that could make tactile maps and such with different textures. That's what I want.
      - gvb 16y ago
        Not quite foldable... How about a single "cell" that is on an X-Y mount (or just X for a simpler single line display). Your finger "sees" only one cell at a time anyway. As you used your finger to "skate" over the surface of the board, the "display" computer would read the X-Y position and drive the pins appropriately for that spot. Back to a one-dimensional (X only) readout with something like a scroll wheel on one side to scroll up and down seems pretty easy and useful. Picture a dot matrix printer where your finger is the "paper". The printhead would need a 2D set of pins, not just a vertical line... hmmm, maybe a vertical line of pins would be adequate in conjunction with the left-right sliding motion. Result: size is limited by the X-Y mechanical accuracy (backlash, rigidity) and cost would scale very well compared to size: one cell's worth of pin drivers for any reasonable size readout. [edit] Per Someone http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1842617 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1842617, a X-only (line) readout with two heads, one for each hand (probably on the same platen) would mimic the Braille best. If you had a force sensor to sense the user pushing +/- in the "Y" dimension, you could use that to "scroll" the line without having to take your hands off the readout.
    - hugs 16y ago
      This might be what you're looking for: "When glass touch screens feel like sandpaper" : http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/innovation/10/08/tesla.touch.disney/index.html?hpt=Sbin http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/innovation/10/08/tesla.touch.di...
  - bilban 16y ago
    When I looked around St Dunstans in Sussex (provides support for the blind and visually impaired), it was suggested that Braille was on the out, which surprised me.
- jules 16y ago
  What is the market for such a device? How many blind computer users are there? How many blind programmers?
runjake 16y ago
Then why not go for an alternative approach? Perhaps a capacitive touch screen with certain subtle audio and haptic feedback? It seems like the mechanical approach current Braille devices use might've jumped the shark, and I wonder if the blind world doesn't need a system that's more easy to do in today's world.

smackfu 16y ago

40 cells is 240 individually actuated pins. 10 lines is 2400. 80 x 25 is 12,000.

Someone 16y ago
Most refreshable Braille displays have 8 pins per character. That fits neatly in a byte, and allows for some more characters to show. That is quite a gain, as standard Braille (64 different patterns) doesn't even have separate code points for capitals.

hugs 16y ago

Well, I'm working on a full-screen display. :-) Software demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qnL7479fbU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qnL7479fbU Source: http://github.com/hugs/pinmachine http://github.com/hugs/pinmachine Hardware demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUgbu0cE2-Q http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUgbu0cE2-Q Biggest issues are cost and size. I'm currently at "1977 Apple" stage - a big, expensive, hand-made prototype. But the biggest issue is cost per pin. Also, resolution is an issue... I'm going for "big and expensive" first, then will work on making it small and cheap overtime. I'm working with small dc motors first, but there are plenty of electromechanical tricks to get this down to braille-worthy stuff.

gsivil 16y ago
This seems like a project that the MIT media lab would like to put its hands on. Why do not you seek a collaboration.
- hugs 16y ago
  I'd love to chat with the MIT media lab folks. If you're so inclinded, check out my HN bio and have them contact me via email or twitter. ;-) I haven't sought a collaboration yet, because "pinmachine" is my weekend project -- my time is otherwise filled up working on my startup (saucelabs.com).
wazoox 16y ago
I had a thought about it, ideally it would be a pin board (like these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikkjT7ACJME http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikkjT7ACJME ) with solenoids or similar motors on each pin... somewhat similar to core memory too, with a different geometry.
- hugs 16y ago
  Yup, that's exactly what I'm going for... It'll be really cool when you can program anything to appear. My dream is to make it large enough to render "Han Solo in Carbonite" on this kind of display. :-)

marze 16y ago

Utility vs cost not there. You still need to scan it one line at a time, not like a visual screen where you can see it all at once and focus on what you think will be relevant.

Someone 16y ago

In the USA, that typically is what people can afford. At about 3 character an inch, it also nicely fits below a laptop. In parts of Wesrern Europe, 70 or 80 characters are common, too. I have even seen two-line displays with two times 80 characters. Those are huge, though. Fills-screen is a bit of a holy grail. What prevents it from happening is technology and price. The only reliable technology uses space next to each character for a piezzo-electric actuator. That makes it impossible to make displays that stretch far in two dimensions (that two line display was over an inch high) Also, those actuators are fairly expensive, say $40 per character. production volume is low, so any manufacturer will need 100% or so of margin. Result: 40 characters for a couple of grand. AFAIk, any other technology still suffers from reliability problems. It turns out to be quite hard to make a small reliable actuator with the required force, travel, and resilience to dirt.