6 ms·

Future of EV vs. ICE

37 points by hunglee2 8y ago

seedless-sensat 8y ago
The first paragraph is full of acronyms. Who is the audience of this?
- saagarjha 8y ago
  This is Twitter, so each character matters. Presumably the intended audience is already familiar with the acronyms (which you would be, if you have ever done a report that has required energy statistics from the agencies mentioned) or able to look them up as needed to follow along.
  - imglorp 8y ago
    What a horrible place /1 to post a long /2 form article. Why do people do this, instead of tweeting a link to their blog?
    - llampx 8y ago
      You get more engagement with a series of tweets than one single tweet, would be my guess.
    - zimpenfish 8y ago
      Not everyone has a blog. Even those that do sometimes tweet out a stream recapping the blog post (Erik Loomis being the one I remember most). (This is such a bizarre complaint to me - it's like insisting that people not speak to you in real time but instead put down their arguments onto paper and present them to you.)
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - klez 8y ago
        > This is such a bizarre complaint to me Not really, imho. There are some kind of media that are more appropriate than others for certain type of messages. For example, would you have liked this as a video or a series of pictures with just text in it? Or as an audio file?
        zimpenfish 8y ago
        > would you have liked this as a video True, it wouldn't work as well if it was a video. > a series of pictures with just text in it? You mean like a presentation of slides? That sounds perfect (and not all that far from a tweet stream, really - small chunks of information presented in order.) > Or as an audio file? Given I've listened to podcasts with episodes on topics like this, yeah, that might also work.
      - petee 8y ago
        > it's like insisting that people not speak to you in real time but instead put down their arguments onto paper Thats not the best analogy for the complaint -- its more like insisting that instead of putting your arguments down on paper in words, you're using emoticons and forcing the reader to play charades. Though to your point, listing out your arguments is certainly a boring, bland way of conveying a topic... Its a poor medium choice; I don't choose a 10x10px image to show you the Mona Lisa...
        zimpenfish 8y ago
        > you're using emoticons and forcing the reader to play charades. Except the tweets aren't emoticons and no-one is forcing the reader to guess anything - the authors are literally "putting [their] arguments down on paper in words", just in short paragraphs.
benj111 8y ago
I don't really have much comment to make on most of these but "18/ In Britain for example, it's now pretty clear that ICE vehicle sales growth peaked in 2016. The total UK market is declining for a second year in row, down 8.9% this year through October. But EV are going the opposite way, and will reach above 6% market share this year." I'm not sure that the ICE sales drops are down to EV sales. At the very least they seem to be over egging the pudding. I'm having a hard time trying to work out some of the authors points (this is basically a list of tweets), but I'd find it interesting to hear about the supply demand interplay when oil use starts dropping. Ie oil use falls leading to lower prices leading to static usage at lower prices? Or lower investment, lower supply, increasing prices, and a rapid death spiral.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  I imagine industrial users of petroleum will prevent any sort of rapid death spiral. Really right now oil is pretty cheap¹ with lots of production costing much less than the commodity price. 1. the extraction cost is a fraction of what people are willing to pay for it in high tax countries.
  - beerlord 8y ago
    Non-transport use of oil is only 32%. 9% is for heating and electricity generation, which presumably will also be replaced with batteries or some other improved technology in the long term. Falling oil demand is great for the planet, since it means lower CO2 emissions, moving pollution from vehicles to centralised power plants (or removing it completely in the case of renewables) rather than at ground level in dense cities, and oil as a finite resource can be used longer for industrial processes for which there are not yet alternatives before we run out. I think once the West is on its way to being mostly oil and coal free, we will start to see really heavy international action on climate change, because any taxes or penalties introduced for carbon emissions will hurt non-Western countries much more. Already there is immense behind the scenes pressure on developing nations to cut fuel subsidies.
    - maxerickson 8y ago
beerlord 8y ago
Soon we'll see the beginnings of the death cycle for ICE vehicles. Lower sales means fewer: Gas Stations Car Dealers Advertisements Repair Shops Which in turn limits the appeal (or increase costs) of an ICE vehicle. Governments worldwide need to rush to figure out how to pay for roads when there is no gas tax revenue. We will need a system that tracks where and when cars are used, like the London congestion charge but on a much bigger scale.
- varjag 8y ago
  Many governments already collect road tax, that's hardly a problem.
- bluedino 8y ago
  >> Soon we'll see the beginnings of the death cycle for ICE vehicles. Lower sales means fewer: Don't forget about all the factories and employees making all those parts fo the gas engines.
- jasonjayr 8y ago
  Where & When? Eww. Why not just a base ownership tax + some trusted means of reporting mileage? We shoulden't share more than we need to calculate a fair use tax. update: s/authenticated/trusted/
  - beerlord 8y ago
    Your location is already being tracked quite accurately by your smartphone. So that horse has already bolted. Vehicle tracking and charging not only allows for effective replacement of gas taxes (they can remain in place just to address the pollution angle for legacy vehicles) but also to tackle congestion - situations where a 10% reduction in vehicles would result in a 30% increase in speed, etc.
    - jasonjayr 8y ago
      I know this, and I'm not going to pretend that there isn't pretty liberal data sharing between intelligence + cellular companies, but I think it would be easier to regulate an interface between private companies + government, rather than regulate use of already retained data. For now, you can choose to not bring your cell phone on that trip to the seedy part of town, so we got that going for us.
Jemm 8y ago
ICE Internal Combustion Engine, gas or diesel or propane EV Electric Vehicle
- petee 8y ago
  Thank you, I've never seen ICE used this way before; I assumed the article was somehow about a new immigration department.
neilwilson 8y ago
Recommended video comparing the environmental impacts of EVs and ICE. https://youtu.be/6RhtiPefVzM https://youtu.be/6RhtiPefVzM
Dumblydorr 8y ago
His writing is Heavy on opinion and low on fact. The simple facts are these: It takes 20 years to turn over the auto fleet and dozens of millions of ices are still being bought in 2018. That means gas demand well into the 2040s. Much like our emissions overall, our auto sector is transitioning too little and too late.
- bryanlarsen 8y ago
  Small changes in demand have a huge impact on price though. Remember, the price of a commodity is set on the margin: the price of a commodity is the marginal cost of the marginal producer. And oil production has high capital costs. So let's pretend in 2018 that the highest cost producer of oil is Canadian tar sands. Let's assume that it costs them $50 per barrel to produce a single barrel excluding capital sunk costs, but $80 to cover both marginal and sunk costs. So even if demand is rising, nobody is going to build a new tar sands project until the price is well above $80 and they're relatively sure that it's going to stay there long enough to pay back their one time capital costs. But if demand is falling, nobody is going to shut down one of those tar sands facilities until the price is below $50. Of course the price of oil has a huge effect on demand, but that demand is pretty sticky. As you said, it takes years for the worldwide fleet to turn over with more or less fuel efficient options. This effect is horribly bad news for the greenhouse effect, though. It does not operate on the margin. We cannot depend on steadily rising petroleum prices to reign in our emissions. We desperately need a global carbon tax or something equivalent or pretty soon we're going to be spending hundreds of trillions of dollars evacuating and protecting our coastal cities and on other global warming mitigation measures.
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    Small IC engines are not the total cause of greenhouse gas emissions, not even the bulk of them. Other transport (shipping, rail, trucks, air etc) contribute as does cement, steel, power and fertilizer production. Replacing every "car" with a tesla today wont do nearly what is needed. Coversely, a delay to the switch to EV doesnt spell doom. This is a larger problem.
baybal2 8y ago
I think photocameras are a good analogy. Early on, it was all about digital storage being so constraining, now an average digital camera can store more photos than a kilogram of film.
- neogodless 8y ago
  I hope you're right. Can we apply Moore's law to batteries and energy storage?! Ah, sarcasm, sorry. I do hope you're at least a little right, in that we start to see some hugely efficient, lightweight storage of energy in EV batteries. We love headlines about battery breakthrough science, but right now, gasoline is still much more energy dense.
  - baybal2 8y ago
    It is not exactly the same, but simple physics says that there is a huuuge potential for further improvement event without changing cell chemistry: Lighter car bodies, better regeneration, more efficient voltage conversion, better battery management, trend towards smaller cars in general, and relaxing crashworthiness standards. Tesla cars have close to a third of the total battery capacity being used as a buffer to extend battery life. Now, imagine a two seater car with CFRP/magnesium spaceframe body, weighting 600kg, and having 200kg battery pack of capacity similar to Model S. You can easily have the range tripled. I'd say that Model S range is already an overkill, and a typical city car will morph much closer towards what Chinese LSEVs are now: No crashworthiness whatsoever, no hydraulics, no cooling system, fibreglass body, 100kg battery pack made of brick cells, spaceframe, 2 PMDC hub motors, 70km max speed. Basically a stool with wheels and a tent roof. Something similar is already on the market and is called Renault Twizy
    - benj111 8y ago
      I would like you to be right, but I suspect you probably aren't, a scooter (moped) can get 100mpg+ right now, and the havent taken off, and as you mention the Twizy, that isn't exactly selling like hot cakes. What I would like to see is temporary, removable, rentable batteries. You size your standard battery to the journeys you make 99% of the time. When you want to make that longer journey you rent an extra battery.
karpodiem 8y ago
Funny how these articles are written by individuals who have never worked in the industry - the author is totally clueless. Okay, let's start with money. Zoom out to a population view and do $1000 USD increments from $1000 to 100,000. The median/average ASP for a new vehicle in the U.S. is $36,270 - https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2018-02-01-Average-New-Car-Prices-Rise-Nearly-4-Percent-For-January-2018-On-Shifting-Sales-Mix-According-To-Kelley-Blue-Book https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2018-02-01-Average-New-Car-Prices-.... That is not going to increase very much year over year, because wages are largely stagnant and the economy is peaking. The U.S. is way over overdue for a recession, European GDP is anemic (0.3% growth in Q3 2018 - https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/9102849/2-07092018-AP-EN/5ee25c3b-4e58-40df-9be9-7671859d6f37 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/9102849/2-07...) and China GDP is 6.5% (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/19/china-q3-gdp-china-posts-economic-data-amid-trade-war-with-us.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/19/china-q3-gdp-china-posts-eco...), but China always lies, so it's probably around 2% or 3%. That's not even taking into account that Chinese consumer debt for mortgage holdings has increased eight-fold since 2008 (https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-10/nightmare-scenario-beijing-50-million-chinese-apartments-are-empty https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-10/nightmare-scenario...). The Chinese consumer is tapped out, which is why for the first time in 31 years, Chinese vehicle sales have actually decreased year over year - https://www.autoblog.com/2018/11/09/china-car-sales-fall/ https://www.autoblog.com/2018/11/09/china-car-sales-fall/ So your vehicle ASP isn't going to increase in the next 10 years - it's probably going to decrease. Total unit volumes in the US will probably go from 17 million units to 11 or 12 million units by 2025. You're trying to tell me the industrial CapEx required for the OEM/supply chain to switch over EV powertrain in a period of falling vehicle sales and deflationary prices for the second largest purchase a consumer can make, after a home, for the two largest automotive markets (the U.S. and China)? Bullshit.
- tigershark 8y ago
  Funny how you compare Europe gdp growth for the last quarter to China growth for the whole year, just to cheat the readers trying to push your narrative. Funny how, for your admission, you have stakes in the oil industry and you are criticising EV with nothing apart from opinions, exactly the same thing that you accuse other writers to do. Even funnier is that you are actually writing that the ASP for a new vehicle, not for a new EV is 36k$ when in about 6/9 months the model 3 will sell for 35k$. The funniest thing obviously is the last word of your comment. Bullshit. It’s the funniest because it really applies to you, working in the oil industry, and just none the wiser like all your colleagues that were ridiculing ev trying all they can to avoid the inevitable. We have today an electric car that can lap faster than a Ferrari 458 [0] without any changes, apart from the wheels, for a fraction of the price. In 12 years, at worst, India and Germany will ban the sale of all the ice cars, as I highlighted in my previous comment. Enjoy your last years in an industry that was lucrative only at the expenses of the whole world. [0] https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/tesla-model-3-faster-than-a-ferrari-458-with-new-track-mode-71836/amp https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.carsguide.com.au/car-news...
Tempest1981 8y ago
He mentions rising oil prices, and engineering a price spike. But this week, the headlines are all about a glut of oil: “Crude oil suffers longest losing streak since 1984” https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/08/investing/oil-prices-bear-market/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/08/investing/oil-prices-bear-mar... Graph: https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/future/clz8/charts https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/future/clz8/charts

37 points by hunglee2 8y ago

seedless-sensat 8y ago

The first paragraph is full of acronyms. Who is the audience of this?

saagarjha 8y ago
This is Twitter, so each character matters. Presumably the intended audience is already familiar with the acronyms (which you would be, if you have ever done a report that has required energy statistics from the agencies mentioned) or able to look them up as needed to follow along.
- imglorp 8y ago
  What a horrible place /1 to post a long /2 form article. Why do people do this, instead of tweeting a link to their blog?
  - llampx 8y ago
    You get more engagement with a series of tweets than one single tweet, would be my guess.
  - zimpenfish 8y ago
    Not everyone has a blog. Even those that do sometimes tweet out a stream recapping the blog post (Erik Loomis being the one I remember most). (This is such a bizarre complaint to me - it's like insisting that people not speak to you in real time but instead put down their arguments onto paper and present them to you.)
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - klez 8y ago
      > This is such a bizarre complaint to me Not really, imho. There are some kind of media that are more appropriate than others for certain type of messages. For example, would you have liked this as a video or a series of pictures with just text in it? Or as an audio file?
      - zimpenfish 8y ago
        > would you have liked this as a video True, it wouldn't work as well if it was a video. > a series of pictures with just text in it? You mean like a presentation of slides? That sounds perfect (and not all that far from a tweet stream, really - small chunks of information presented in order.) > Or as an audio file? Given I've listened to podcasts with episodes on topics like this, yeah, that might also work.
    - petee 8y ago
      > it's like insisting that people not speak to you in real time but instead put down their arguments onto paper Thats not the best analogy for the complaint -- its more like insisting that instead of putting your arguments down on paper in words, you're using emoticons and forcing the reader to play charades. Though to your point, listing out your arguments is certainly a boring, bland way of conveying a topic... Its a poor medium choice; I don't choose a 10x10px image to show you the Mona Lisa...
      - zimpenfish 8y ago
        > you're using emoticons and forcing the reader to play charades. Except the tweets aren't emoticons and no-one is forcing the reader to guess anything - the authors are literally "putting [their] arguments down on paper in words", just in short paragraphs.

benj111 8y ago

I don't really have much comment to make on most of these but "18/ In Britain for example, it's now pretty clear that ICE vehicle sales growth peaked in 2016. The total UK market is declining for a second year in row, down 8.9% this year through October. But EV are going the opposite way, and will reach above 6% market share this year." I'm not sure that the ICE sales drops are down to EV sales. At the very least they seem to be over egging the pudding. I'm having a hard time trying to work out some of the authors points (this is basically a list of tweets), but I'd find it interesting to hear about the supply demand interplay when oil use starts dropping. Ie oil use falls leading to lower prices leading to static usage at lower prices? Or lower investment, lower supply, increasing prices, and a rapid death spiral.

maxerickson 8y ago
I imagine industrial users of petroleum will prevent any sort of rapid death spiral. Really right now oil is pretty cheap¹ with lots of production costing much less than the commodity price. 1. the extraction cost is a fraction of what people are willing to pay for it in high tax countries.
- beerlord 8y ago
  Non-transport use of oil is only 32%. 9% is for heating and electricity generation, which presumably will also be replaced with batteries or some other improved technology in the long term. Falling oil demand is great for the planet, since it means lower CO2 emissions, moving pollution from vehicles to centralised power plants (or removing it completely in the case of renewables) rather than at ground level in dense cities, and oil as a finite resource can be used longer for industrial processes for which there are not yet alternatives before we run out. I think once the West is on its way to being mostly oil and coal free, we will start to see really heavy international action on climate change, because any taxes or penalties introduced for carbon emissions will hurt non-Western countries much more. Already there is immense behind the scenes pressure on developing nations to cut fuel subsidies.
  - maxerickson 8y ago

beerlord 8y ago

Soon we'll see the beginnings of the death cycle for ICE vehicles. Lower sales means fewer: Gas Stations Car Dealers Advertisements Repair Shops Which in turn limits the appeal (or increase costs) of an ICE vehicle. Governments worldwide need to rush to figure out how to pay for roads when there is no gas tax revenue. We will need a system that tracks where and when cars are used, like the London congestion charge but on a much bigger scale.

varjag 8y ago
Many governments already collect road tax, that's hardly a problem.
bluedino 8y ago
>> Soon we'll see the beginnings of the death cycle for ICE vehicles. Lower sales means fewer: Don't forget about all the factories and employees making all those parts fo the gas engines.
jasonjayr 8y ago
Where & When? Eww. Why not just a base ownership tax + some trusted means of reporting mileage? We shoulden't share more than we need to calculate a fair use tax. update: s/authenticated/trusted/
- beerlord 8y ago
  Your location is already being tracked quite accurately by your smartphone. So that horse has already bolted. Vehicle tracking and charging not only allows for effective replacement of gas taxes (they can remain in place just to address the pollution angle for legacy vehicles) but also to tackle congestion - situations where a 10% reduction in vehicles would result in a 30% increase in speed, etc.
  - jasonjayr 8y ago
    I know this, and I'm not going to pretend that there isn't pretty liberal data sharing between intelligence + cellular companies, but I think it would be easier to regulate an interface between private companies + government, rather than regulate use of already retained data. For now, you can choose to not bring your cell phone on that trip to the seedy part of town, so we got that going for us.

Jemm 8y ago

ICE Internal Combustion Engine, gas or diesel or propane EV Electric Vehicle

petee 8y ago
Thank you, I've never seen ICE used this way before; I assumed the article was somehow about a new immigration department.

neilwilson 8y ago

Recommended video comparing the environmental impacts of EVs and ICE. https://youtu.be/6RhtiPefVzM https://youtu.be/6RhtiPefVzM

Dumblydorr 8y ago

His writing is Heavy on opinion and low on fact. The simple facts are these: It takes 20 years to turn over the auto fleet and dozens of millions of ices are still being bought in 2018. That means gas demand well into the 2040s. Much like our emissions overall, our auto sector is transitioning too little and too late.

bryanlarsen 8y ago
Small changes in demand have a huge impact on price though. Remember, the price of a commodity is set on the margin: the price of a commodity is the marginal cost of the marginal producer. And oil production has high capital costs. So let's pretend in 2018 that the highest cost producer of oil is Canadian tar sands. Let's assume that it costs them $50 per barrel to produce a single barrel excluding capital sunk costs, but $80 to cover both marginal and sunk costs. So even if demand is rising, nobody is going to build a new tar sands project until the price is well above $80 and they're relatively sure that it's going to stay there long enough to pay back their one time capital costs. But if demand is falling, nobody is going to shut down one of those tar sands facilities until the price is below $50. Of course the price of oil has a huge effect on demand, but that demand is pretty sticky. As you said, it takes years for the worldwide fleet to turn over with more or less fuel efficient options. This effect is horribly bad news for the greenhouse effect, though. It does not operate on the margin. We cannot depend on steadily rising petroleum prices to reign in our emissions. We desperately need a global carbon tax or something equivalent or pretty soon we're going to be spending hundreds of trillions of dollars evacuating and protecting our coastal cities and on other global warming mitigation measures.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  Small IC engines are not the total cause of greenhouse gas emissions, not even the bulk of them. Other transport (shipping, rail, trucks, air etc) contribute as does cement, steel, power and fertilizer production. Replacing every "car" with a tesla today wont do nearly what is needed. Coversely, a delay to the switch to EV doesnt spell doom. This is a larger problem.

baybal2 8y ago

I think photocameras are a good analogy. Early on, it was all about digital storage being so constraining, now an average digital camera can store more photos than a kilogram of film.

neogodless 8y ago
I hope you're right. Can we apply Moore's law to batteries and energy storage?! Ah, sarcasm, sorry. I do hope you're at least a little right, in that we start to see some hugely efficient, lightweight storage of energy in EV batteries. We love headlines about battery breakthrough science, but right now, gasoline is still much more energy dense.
- baybal2 8y ago
  It is not exactly the same, but simple physics says that there is a huuuge potential for further improvement event without changing cell chemistry: Lighter car bodies, better regeneration, more efficient voltage conversion, better battery management, trend towards smaller cars in general, and relaxing crashworthiness standards. Tesla cars have close to a third of the total battery capacity being used as a buffer to extend battery life. Now, imagine a two seater car with CFRP/magnesium spaceframe body, weighting 600kg, and having 200kg battery pack of capacity similar to Model S. You can easily have the range tripled. I'd say that Model S range is already an overkill, and a typical city car will morph much closer towards what Chinese LSEVs are now: No crashworthiness whatsoever, no hydraulics, no cooling system, fibreglass body, 100kg battery pack made of brick cells, spaceframe, 2 PMDC hub motors, 70km max speed. Basically a stool with wheels and a tent roof. Something similar is already on the market and is called Renault Twizy
  - benj111 8y ago
    I would like you to be right, but I suspect you probably aren't, a scooter (moped) can get 100mpg+ right now, and the havent taken off, and as you mention the Twizy, that isn't exactly selling like hot cakes. What I would like to see is temporary, removable, rentable batteries. You size your standard battery to the journeys you make 99% of the time. When you want to make that longer journey you rent an extra battery.

karpodiem 8y ago

Funny how these articles are written by individuals who have never worked in the industry - the author is totally clueless. Okay, let's start with money. Zoom out to a population view and do $1000 USD increments from $1000 to 100,000. The median/average ASP for a new vehicle in the U.S. is $36,270 - https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2018-02-01-Average-New-Car-Prices-Rise-Nearly-4-Percent-For-January-2018-On-Shifting-Sales-Mix-According-To-Kelley-Blue-Book https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2018-02-01-Average-New-Car-Prices-.... That is not going to increase very much year over year, because wages are largely stagnant and the economy is peaking. The U.S. is way over overdue for a recession, European GDP is anemic (0.3% growth in Q3 2018 - https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/9102849/2-07092018-AP-EN/5ee25c3b-4e58-40df-9be9-7671859d6f37 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/9102849/2-07...) and China GDP is 6.5% (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/19/china-q3-gdp-china-posts-economic-data-amid-trade-war-with-us.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/19/china-q3-gdp-china-posts-eco...), but China always lies, so it's probably around 2% or 3%. That's not even taking into account that Chinese consumer debt for mortgage holdings has increased eight-fold since 2008 (https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-10/nightmare-scenario-beijing-50-million-chinese-apartments-are-empty https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-10/nightmare-scenario...). The Chinese consumer is tapped out, which is why for the first time in 31 years, Chinese vehicle sales have actually decreased year over year - https://www.autoblog.com/2018/11/09/china-car-sales-fall/ https://www.autoblog.com/2018/11/09/china-car-sales-fall/ So your vehicle ASP isn't going to increase in the next 10 years - it's probably going to decrease. Total unit volumes in the US will probably go from 17 million units to 11 or 12 million units by 2025. You're trying to tell me the industrial CapEx required for the OEM/supply chain to switch over EV powertrain in a period of falling vehicle sales and deflationary prices for the second largest purchase a consumer can make, after a home, for the two largest automotive markets (the U.S. and China)? Bullshit.

tigershark 8y ago
Funny how you compare Europe gdp growth for the last quarter to China growth for the whole year, just to cheat the readers trying to push your narrative. Funny how, for your admission, you have stakes in the oil industry and you are criticising EV with nothing apart from opinions, exactly the same thing that you accuse other writers to do. Even funnier is that you are actually writing that the ASP for a new vehicle, not for a new EV is 36k$ when in about 6/9 months the model 3 will sell for 35k$. The funniest thing obviously is the last word of your comment. Bullshit. It’s the funniest because it really applies to you, working in the oil industry, and just none the wiser like all your colleagues that were ridiculing ev trying all they can to avoid the inevitable. We have today an electric car that can lap faster than a Ferrari 458 [0] without any changes, apart from the wheels, for a fraction of the price. In 12 years, at worst, India and Germany will ban the sale of all the ice cars, as I highlighted in my previous comment. Enjoy your last years in an industry that was lucrative only at the expenses of the whole world. [0] https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/tesla-model-3-faster-than-a-ferrari-458-with-new-track-mode-71836/amp https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.carsguide.com.au/car-news...

Tempest1981 8y ago

He mentions rising oil prices, and engineering a price spike. But this week, the headlines are all about a glut of oil: “Crude oil suffers longest losing streak since 1984” https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/08/investing/oil-prices-bear-market/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/08/investing/oil-prices-bear-mar... Graph: https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/future/clz8/charts https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/future/clz8/charts