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It has already been implemented (Bitcoin, Monero etc), and is improving gradually. The control freaks who would not like to tolerate it think they'll be able to

It has already been implemented (Bitcoin, Monero etc), and is improving gradually. The control freaks who would not like to tolerate it think they'll be able to tame it, but Bitcoin is like the Hydra - it gets stronger with every unsuccessful attack attempt. It's better for them to bury their heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist in order to not bring attention to it. When they eventually lift their heads out of the sand they'll find that the world has moved on without them.

tjoff 8y ago
Bitcoin is neither anonymous nor untraceable. Replacing cash with bitcoin would be a nightmare.
- sparkie 8y ago
  It's not there yet, but eventually Bitcoin will be near enough anonymous and untraceable via the use of the Lightning Network, sidechains, CT and mixing services. There's usually a cost/privacy tradeoff, and people will be able to choose their appropriate level of privacy.
- mrb 8y ago
  Other cryptos are fully anonymous & untraceable. For example zcash uses zero-knowledge proofs (zk-SNARKs) to conceal all elements of a transaction (sender, receiver, amount.)
  - akvadrako 8y ago
    Zcash only uses those for some transactions because the complexity is so high. It also requires connecting to the payment network via an IP address, which isn't really anonymous.
    - mrb 8y ago
      «Zcash only uses those for some transactions» No, Zcash offers the option to always use shielded transactions, if that's what you want. The choice to use a shielded or unshielded transaction rests solely in the hands of the user. It is true that CPU and memory complexity use to be high for shielded transactions. However Sapling just activated (https://z.cash/blog/sapling-activation-complete/ https://z.cash/blog/sapling-activation-complete/) and it resolves the issue: a shielded transaction used to take up to minutes of CPU time and 3GB+ of RAM, but now can be done in 1 second with ~40MB: https://medium.com/@EthAdvisor/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-upcoming-zcash-sapling-upgrade-why-its-so-important-and-b5787cc7b68e https://medium.com/@EthAdvisor/everything-you-need-to-know-a... Furthermore, Zcash promotes the use of TOR if users wish to hide their IP address.
      - sparkie 8y ago
        Private transactions are not the default behavior, which makes transaction analysis more feasible than with private-by-default currencies like Monero. Also, zcash has the trusted setup issue, which requires that you trust the developers were not compromised or did not store data during the setup, or they might be able to print infinite coins without detection if the data were to be recovered. For some, this makes it a non-starter, despite the efficiency of SNARKS over Bulletproofs which Monero now uses. Don't let that deter you though. Zooko only pays himself a $300,000/mo salary. He will struggle to get by without the crowds of new adopters.
        mrb 8y ago
        «Private transactions are not the default behavior» There is no "default" behavior. The software gives you the choice between shielded and unshielded, and the enduser has to choose. There is no default. «requires that you trust the developers» Not really. In the latest Powers of Tau ceremony, there were 87 participants. This group spans more than just the developers. Even if 86 participants were malicious or compromised, as long as there is at least 1 honest participant, the system can be trusted. «Zooko only pays himself a $300,000/mo» Not sure why this is a problem. By comparison, Satoshi "paid himself" (mined) 1M BTC =~ $6 billion dollars. I'm fine with the founders of world-changing cryptocurrencies being handsomely rewarded.
- radicalbyte 8y ago
  Thankfully it's not possible thanks to the wait time :-)
  - mrb 8y ago
    There is no wait time when using a Bitcoin Lightning transaction: http://lightning.network/ http://lightning.network/ There is no wait time when recipients accept 0-conf transactions (which is always the case in a brick and mortar store, because 99% of the time it's safe enough – there is even smart tools that verify the transaction is sufficiently broadcasted to reduce risk).
asah 8y ago
Serious q: one of the big arguments against untraceable transactions is organized crime. Yes they're very real. But what if untraceable transactions were limited to small amounts and slow rates, such that you could personally provide for your family but not run an enterprise? (basically that's what physical cash attempts, and as long as the denominations are kept low, it sort of works)
- sparkie 8y ago
  You can ask the questions about whether it should or should not enable crime, but the question is useless, because it doesn't address whether it can or cannot enable crime. When you ask this question, you come to the conclusion that it can enable crime. So then you might argue that if it can enable crime, we must do something about it. Admirable ideas, but you then need to ask the question, can we do anything about it? When you ask this, you come to the conclusion that you can't do anything about it. Bitcoin happened. Nobody is in control. It does not care about your opinion. So the real question we should be asking, is, if Bitcoin can enable crime, and we are unable to prevent the use of Bitcoin, how must our law enforcement adapt to this new world? Then we can stop wasting resources on hopelessly trying to adapt the world to suit law enforcement.
  - jcoffland 8y ago
    Rocks enable crime and they are everywhere. We need to do something about this rock problem we have.
  - dasil003 8y ago
    You're fooling yourself if you believe nothing can be done about Bitcoin. If the powers that be want it dead they'll outlaw it, and that's effectively game over for any kind of common transaction system. The reason it hasn't so far is because there are too many rich and powerful speculators involved, but those winds could change in a hurry so I wouldn't get too cocky.
    - go_blue_13 8y ago
      Yeah this is wrong. Bitcoin is everywhere, not just in the US, and there's no way in hell going to be a worldwide coordinated crackdown. And as long as people are running nodes, Bitcoin isn't going anywhere.

tjoff 8y ago

Bitcoin is neither anonymous nor untraceable. Replacing cash with bitcoin would be a nightmare.

sparkie 8y ago
It's not there yet, but eventually Bitcoin will be near enough anonymous and untraceable via the use of the Lightning Network, sidechains, CT and mixing services. There's usually a cost/privacy tradeoff, and people will be able to choose their appropriate level of privacy.
mrb 8y ago
Other cryptos are fully anonymous & untraceable. For example zcash uses zero-knowledge proofs (zk-SNARKs) to conceal all elements of a transaction (sender, receiver, amount.)
- akvadrako 8y ago
  Zcash only uses those for some transactions because the complexity is so high. It also requires connecting to the payment network via an IP address, which isn't really anonymous.
  - mrb 8y ago
    «Zcash only uses those for some transactions» No, Zcash offers the option to always use shielded transactions, if that's what you want. The choice to use a shielded or unshielded transaction rests solely in the hands of the user. It is true that CPU and memory complexity use to be high for shielded transactions. However Sapling just activated (https://z.cash/blog/sapling-activation-complete/ https://z.cash/blog/sapling-activation-complete/) and it resolves the issue: a shielded transaction used to take up to minutes of CPU time and 3GB+ of RAM, but now can be done in 1 second with ~40MB: https://medium.com/@EthAdvisor/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-upcoming-zcash-sapling-upgrade-why-its-so-important-and-b5787cc7b68e https://medium.com/@EthAdvisor/everything-you-need-to-know-a... Furthermore, Zcash promotes the use of TOR if users wish to hide their IP address.
    - sparkie 8y ago
      Private transactions are not the default behavior, which makes transaction analysis more feasible than with private-by-default currencies like Monero. Also, zcash has the trusted setup issue, which requires that you trust the developers were not compromised or did not store data during the setup, or they might be able to print infinite coins without detection if the data were to be recovered. For some, this makes it a non-starter, despite the efficiency of SNARKS over Bulletproofs which Monero now uses. Don't let that deter you though. Zooko only pays himself a $300,000/mo salary. He will struggle to get by without the crowds of new adopters.
      - mrb 8y ago
        «Private transactions are not the default behavior» There is no "default" behavior. The software gives you the choice between shielded and unshielded, and the enduser has to choose. There is no default. «requires that you trust the developers» Not really. In the latest Powers of Tau ceremony, there were 87 participants. This group spans more than just the developers. Even if 86 participants were malicious or compromised, as long as there is at least 1 honest participant, the system can be trusted. «Zooko only pays himself a $300,000/mo» Not sure why this is a problem. By comparison, Satoshi "paid himself" (mined) 1M BTC =~ $6 billion dollars. I'm fine with the founders of world-changing cryptocurrencies being handsomely rewarded.
radicalbyte 8y ago
Thankfully it's not possible thanks to the wait time :-)
- mrb 8y ago
  There is no wait time when using a Bitcoin Lightning transaction: http://lightning.network/ http://lightning.network/ There is no wait time when recipients accept 0-conf transactions (which is always the case in a brick and mortar store, because 99% of the time it's safe enough – there is even smart tools that verify the transaction is sufficiently broadcasted to reduce risk).

asah 8y ago

Serious q: one of the big arguments against untraceable transactions is organized crime. Yes they're very real. But what if untraceable transactions were limited to small amounts and slow rates, such that you could personally provide for your family but not run an enterprise? (basically that's what physical cash attempts, and as long as the denominations are kept low, it sort of works)

sparkie 8y ago
You can ask the questions about whether it should or should not enable crime, but the question is useless, because it doesn't address whether it can or cannot enable crime. When you ask this question, you come to the conclusion that it can enable crime. So then you might argue that if it can enable crime, we must do something about it. Admirable ideas, but you then need to ask the question, can we do anything about it? When you ask this, you come to the conclusion that you can't do anything about it. Bitcoin happened. Nobody is in control. It does not care about your opinion. So the real question we should be asking, is, if Bitcoin can enable crime, and we are unable to prevent the use of Bitcoin, how must our law enforcement adapt to this new world? Then we can stop wasting resources on hopelessly trying to adapt the world to suit law enforcement.
- jcoffland 8y ago
  Rocks enable crime and they are everywhere. We need to do something about this rock problem we have.
- dasil003 8y ago
  You're fooling yourself if you believe nothing can be done about Bitcoin. If the powers that be want it dead they'll outlaw it, and that's effectively game over for any kind of common transaction system. The reason it hasn't so far is because there are too many rich and powerful speculators involved, but those winds could change in a hurry so I wouldn't get too cocky.
  - go_blue_13 8y ago
    Yeah this is wrong. Bitcoin is everywhere, not just in the US, and there's no way in hell going to be a worldwide coordinated crackdown. And as long as people are running nodes, Bitcoin isn't going anywhere.