7 ms·

As a resident of Sweden, i can only say that this is the future for all western countries. Life is just better without cash. We don't pay the mental tax of alwa

As a resident of Sweden, i can only say that this is the future for all western countries. Life is just better without cash. We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center. Your phone is enough to get you through the day. The govt is still run by the people for the people here, so most people aren't worried about totalitarianism. Most beggars now have signs with their phone number to swish them cash - because nobody has cash to give them (the other form of begging is collecting plastic bottles and cans with deposits).

thomastjeffery 8y ago
I think you are confusing "without cash" with "with digital payment methods". The vast majority of Americans rarely use cash, but that doesn't make it worthless to us.
kungtotte 8y ago
People who speak in absolute terms are always wrong. I always have cash on me and it's extremely common here, 60 kilometres outside Stockholm, for people to not only carry cash but to actively use it. A non-trivial amount of transactions in Sweden are still cash-based.
tjoff 8y ago
No. It isn't worth it. Life isn't better, but privacy non-existent and society is ridiculously fragile from outtakes (this isn't even factoring in that the systems could be actively attacked). Yes it is the future, but we will be much worse for it. / Another swede.
kstenerud 8y ago
So if your phone dies or is lost or stolen, how do you pay for food with no phone? How do you even buy a replacement phone if you have no phone to pay with?
- pishpash 8y ago
  If you lose your wallet how do you pay for food with no wallet? This is a false line of argument.
  - scbrg 8y ago
    With the spare cash I have at home. I don't have a spare phone at home, with a spare SIM card.
    - james_s_tayler 8y ago
      So... the logical conclusion is you would instead have a spare phone at home.
      - djdjdndhx 8y ago
        Hmm, keep $200-600 of quickly depreciating assets whose creation is a sin against our children’s enviroment when I can have five crisp linen Benjamins at home? And do the same for car. And the hotel room when you are travelling. Doesn’t seem too logical.
        james_s_tayler 8y ago
        You know I already have a spare phone at home. Cost me nothing technically since when I upgraded I just kept it instead of throwing it out. Reduce, reuse, recycle. Y'all bitch it's ridiculous (and I ain't saying it's right or that I agree with the premise of having to do it in the first place), I'm just saying thats what people will do faced with the situation.
        djdjdndhx 8y ago
        So you’re in Puerto Rico and the hurricane hits. No cell phone towers for a week. No electricity for months. What do you do now? Pawn your backup iPhone X for $30?
      - scbrg 8y ago
- alkonaut 8y ago
  Transactions to businesses are done with cards. Transactions between individuals are done with phones. A few businesses use the phone transfers but one doesn’t use that to buy food. It’s typically done with debit cards like most other places. If my card is lost I actually don’t have any spare cash at home or similar - although it is recommended to keep some.
nisse72 8y ago
We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center. That has never been necessary in Sweden, or (AFAIK) most other places. I have never known anyone outside of the US who carries cash for the express purpose of tipping. To the extent that tipping even exists in Sweden, it's usually just done by rounding up whatever is owed.
notyourday 8y ago
Naivete is abundant... Guess what happens to your ability to do anything if whatever the ID that is used to identify you is marked as invalid or even better deceased? https://www.theverge.com/2015/9/16/9340511/perstin-experian-bank-death-credit-reporting https://www.theverge.com/2015/9/16/9340511/perstin-experian-...
paavoova 8y ago
And what happens if you wish to opt out of relying on a phone? The consequences of total and utter dependency on a technology you don't control and which is ripe for exploit are horrifying. If it ever comes to that, it's no different than having an embedded microchip under your scalp. Thanks, but I'll bear the minor inconveniences of cash, where applicable, for the freedom such transactions still offer in this ever-digitized, tracking society.
nbsd4life 8y ago
If you've ever been on the bad side of banks you'll dread this a lot. I merely had my credit card stolen but getting a replacement was surprisingly time-consuming and I'm glad I could still eat and travel until then.
- jlokier 8y ago
  If you get on the bad side of the banks, it's much worse. You can't get a bank account at all, or you can't keep the accounts you have. If you had credit (overdraft or credit card), it is taken away exactly at the moment you need to use it and you're put into unauthorised debt. If that happens you may not get credit from anywhere else. Where I live, even high-interest payday loans will likely be declined at that point. If you run out of funds, you're probably going to incur compound charges as bills continue to try to be drawn. In a cashless world run through bank accounts, at that point your friends can't lend you a little something to help with immediate necessities like food. Anything they send is instantly absorbed by charges and/or cancelling unauthorised debt (which was authorised when you incurred it - remember you're on the bad side of banks and they took away existing credit arrangements). So you can't buy that food, and your friends can't even give/lend you a little money to help - you'll need friends who will directly feed you. If it lasts for long, you can't rent somewhere to live, and you can't get paid for decent work. (These two things are already bad - where I live a poor credit rating means rental agencies will decline a tenancy or ask for 6 or 12 months rent (and 1-2 months deposit), and people who can't get bank accounts can't take jobs that only pay wages to an account. The two are linked and it's tough to get out of.) Don't get on the bad side of banks in a cashless, banks-only society.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
ThrowawayR2 8y ago
> Life is just better without cash. Even if you believe that, allowing private for-profit businesses (banks, credit card companies) to skim a percentage off of every single monetary transaction to line the pockets of their shareholders is utterly grotesque. It amounts to a mandatory tax, except none of the tax is going to the benefit of the taxed. At a minimum, a reasonable cashless society would require monetary transactions to be done at zero profit and with strong regulation requiring financial institutions to minimize the cost to the seller and buyer.
- yxhuvud 8y ago
  In practice, similar fees are attached to businesses that move their cash to their bank account. Many companies (including public ones - many buses don't accept cash anymore) actively stop accepting cash because it increases the risk of getting robbed, and that is an increasing pressure as fewer and fewer handle cash.
thaumasiotes 8y ago
> We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center. Is this something you were doing before? If not, why did you bring it up? Who do you imagine is doing this?
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  When I moved from the bay area to Germany, I suddenly had to actively manage the cash in my wallet and intentionally bring coins -- coins, people! -- with me around town. Felt like taking a step backwards in time, really annoying. If you use the "wrong" bill denominations or don't have the right coins, cashiers can get irked at you too. It's so backwards compared to not having to think about it.
  - vaylian 8y ago
    As someone who lives in Germany I find this surprising. Yes, people expect you to have bills of the right size. But coins? Never encountered that. Cashless is more convenient. But given how fundamental money is in our society, I would never be fine with a centralized system that controls all payments. That is simply too much power in one place. I know HN is more about startup-hackers than FOSS-hackers, but I am pretty sure everyone here understands that this is a dangerous development.
    - TulliusCicero 8y ago
      > coins? Never encountered that. Yes, sometimes cashiers ask if I have certain coins to make giving change easier. Also you need coins for shopping carts.
      - thaumasiotes 8y ago
        > Yes, sometimes cashiers ask if I have certain coins to make giving change easier. You would have encountered the identical behavior in the bay area if you'd paid for things in cash. That's not because the cashier expects you to have the coins; it's an extra effort on their part to make things more convenient for you.
cjhanks 8y ago
As long as you are fine with companies tracking every place you go (via GPS), everything you purchase, everything you view on line, and everybody you know. Then sure, the phone can replace cash. Often I do not want any record that I have purchased something, I will stick with cash. Thanks.
- djdjdndhx 8y ago
  Specifically anything that anyone can or has at one point considered sinful, I would buy with cash: - Alcohol - Cigarettes - Drugs - Condoms - Feminist literature - Anti-feminist literature - Ammunition - Guns - Bible - The Koran - Marx’s The Capital - Low cut dress
- Paperweight 8y ago
  "I don't care about privacy because I have nothing to hide" = "I don't care about free speech because I have nothing to say"
- zmk_ 8y ago
  People in the Nordic countries have a different expectation of privacy. Just search for the plethora of papers in economics and finance that use "Swedish/Danish/Finnish data". While anonymized, you can get a look at spending and investment of the whole population. After you move to a new place, you get a personalized onslaught of mail welcoming you the neighbourhood. Everything you do is connected to the personnummer (social security number), including loyalty cards in shops.
walshemj 8y ago
The mental tax of having £100 in your wallet? this is hardly a serious problem for most people.
sfcguyus 8y ago
As someone who' seen both the cashless and society with cash. The cash one is better.
yxhuvud 8y ago
It is the future, but there are at the same time a lot of unsolved problems involved. Tourists not being able to pay unless they happen to have a VISA card is one, old people not understanding technology another. And the dependence on the private sector for cash that the article refers to is also a real problem. But I do agree with the premise that it is progress in action, it just isn't the case that we are moving towards a steady state but the end goal is still constantly evolving.
type0 8y ago
> The govt is still run by the people for the people here, so most people aren't worried about totalitarianism. They should, it's just stupid not to care about democracy and your own freedom.

thomastjeffery 8y ago

I think you are confusing "without cash" with "with digital payment methods". The vast majority of Americans rarely use cash, but that doesn't make it worthless to us.

kungtotte 8y ago

People who speak in absolute terms are always wrong. I always have cash on me and it's extremely common here, 60 kilometres outside Stockholm, for people to not only carry cash but to actively use it. A non-trivial amount of transactions in Sweden are still cash-based.

tjoff 8y ago

No. It isn't worth it. Life isn't better, but privacy non-existent and society is ridiculously fragile from outtakes (this isn't even factoring in that the systems could be actively attacked). Yes it is the future, but we will be much worse for it. / Another swede.

kstenerud 8y ago

So if your phone dies or is lost or stolen, how do you pay for food with no phone? How do you even buy a replacement phone if you have no phone to pay with?

pishpash 8y ago
If you lose your wallet how do you pay for food with no wallet? This is a false line of argument.
- scbrg 8y ago
  With the spare cash I have at home. I don't have a spare phone at home, with a spare SIM card.
  - james_s_tayler 8y ago
    So... the logical conclusion is you would instead have a spare phone at home.
    - djdjdndhx 8y ago
      Hmm, keep $200-600 of quickly depreciating assets whose creation is a sin against our children’s enviroment when I can have five crisp linen Benjamins at home? And do the same for car. And the hotel room when you are travelling. Doesn’t seem too logical.
      - james_s_tayler 8y ago
        You know I already have a spare phone at home. Cost me nothing technically since when I upgraded I just kept it instead of throwing it out. Reduce, reuse, recycle. Y'all bitch it's ridiculous (and I ain't saying it's right or that I agree with the premise of having to do it in the first place), I'm just saying thats what people will do faced with the situation.
        djdjdndhx 8y ago
        So you’re in Puerto Rico and the hurricane hits. No cell phone towers for a week. No electricity for months. What do you do now? Pawn your backup iPhone X for $30?
    - scbrg 8y ago
alkonaut 8y ago
Transactions to businesses are done with cards. Transactions between individuals are done with phones. A few businesses use the phone transfers but one doesn’t use that to buy food. It’s typically done with debit cards like most other places. If my card is lost I actually don’t have any spare cash at home or similar - although it is recommended to keep some.

nisse72 8y ago

We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center. That has never been necessary in Sweden, or (AFAIK) most other places. I have never known anyone outside of the US who carries cash for the express purpose of tipping. To the extent that tipping even exists in Sweden, it's usually just done by rounding up whatever is owed.

notyourday 8y ago

Naivete is abundant... Guess what happens to your ability to do anything if whatever the ID that is used to identify you is marked as invalid or even better deceased? https://www.theverge.com/2015/9/16/9340511/perstin-experian-bank-death-credit-reporting https://www.theverge.com/2015/9/16/9340511/perstin-experian-...

paavoova 8y ago

And what happens if you wish to opt out of relying on a phone? The consequences of total and utter dependency on a technology you don't control and which is ripe for exploit are horrifying. If it ever comes to that, it's no different than having an embedded microchip under your scalp. Thanks, but I'll bear the minor inconveniences of cash, where applicable, for the freedom such transactions still offer in this ever-digitized, tracking society.

nbsd4life 8y ago

If you've ever been on the bad side of banks you'll dread this a lot. I merely had my credit card stolen but getting a replacement was surprisingly time-consuming and I'm glad I could still eat and travel until then.

jlokier 8y ago
If you get on the bad side of the banks, it's much worse. You can't get a bank account at all, or you can't keep the accounts you have. If you had credit (overdraft or credit card), it is taken away exactly at the moment you need to use it and you're put into unauthorised debt. If that happens you may not get credit from anywhere else. Where I live, even high-interest payday loans will likely be declined at that point. If you run out of funds, you're probably going to incur compound charges as bills continue to try to be drawn. In a cashless world run through bank accounts, at that point your friends can't lend you a little something to help with immediate necessities like food. Anything they send is instantly absorbed by charges and/or cancelling unauthorised debt (which was authorised when you incurred it - remember you're on the bad side of banks and they took away existing credit arrangements). So you can't buy that food, and your friends can't even give/lend you a little money to help - you'll need friends who will directly feed you. If it lasts for long, you can't rent somewhere to live, and you can't get paid for decent work. (These two things are already bad - where I live a poor credit rating means rental agencies will decline a tenancy or ask for 6 or 12 months rent (and 1-2 months deposit), and people who can't get bank accounts can't take jobs that only pay wages to an account. The two are linked and it's tough to get out of.) Don't get on the bad side of banks in a cashless, banks-only society.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

ThrowawayR2 8y ago

> Life is just better without cash. Even if you believe that, allowing private for-profit businesses (banks, credit card companies) to skim a percentage off of every single monetary transaction to line the pockets of their shareholders is utterly grotesque. It amounts to a mandatory tax, except none of the tax is going to the benefit of the taxed. At a minimum, a reasonable cashless society would require monetary transactions to be done at zero profit and with strong regulation requiring financial institutions to minimize the cost to the seller and buyer.

yxhuvud 8y ago
In practice, similar fees are attached to businesses that move their cash to their bank account. Many companies (including public ones - many buses don't accept cash anymore) actively stop accepting cash because it increases the risk of getting robbed, and that is an increasing pressure as fewer and fewer handle cash.

thaumasiotes 8y ago

> We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center. Is this something you were doing before? If not, why did you bring it up? Who do you imagine is doing this?

TulliusCicero 8y ago
When I moved from the bay area to Germany, I suddenly had to actively manage the cash in my wallet and intentionally bring coins -- coins, people! -- with me around town. Felt like taking a step backwards in time, really annoying. If you use the "wrong" bill denominations or don't have the right coins, cashiers can get irked at you too. It's so backwards compared to not having to think about it.
- vaylian 8y ago
  As someone who lives in Germany I find this surprising. Yes, people expect you to have bills of the right size. But coins? Never encountered that. Cashless is more convenient. But given how fundamental money is in our society, I would never be fine with a centralized system that controls all payments. That is simply too much power in one place. I know HN is more about startup-hackers than FOSS-hackers, but I am pretty sure everyone here understands that this is a dangerous development.
  - TulliusCicero 8y ago
    > coins? Never encountered that. Yes, sometimes cashiers ask if I have certain coins to make giving change easier. Also you need coins for shopping carts.
    - thaumasiotes 8y ago
      > Yes, sometimes cashiers ask if I have certain coins to make giving change easier. You would have encountered the identical behavior in the bay area if you'd paid for things in cash. That's not because the cashier expects you to have the coins; it's an extra effort on their part to make things more convenient for you.

cjhanks 8y ago

As long as you are fine with companies tracking every place you go (via GPS), everything you purchase, everything you view on line, and everybody you know. Then sure, the phone can replace cash. Often I do not want any record that I have purchased something, I will stick with cash. Thanks.

djdjdndhx 8y ago
Specifically anything that anyone can or has at one point considered sinful, I would buy with cash: - Alcohol - Cigarettes - Drugs - Condoms - Feminist literature - Anti-feminist literature - Ammunition - Guns - Bible - The Koran - Marx’s The Capital - Low cut dress
Paperweight 8y ago
"I don't care about privacy because I have nothing to hide" = "I don't care about free speech because I have nothing to say"
zmk_ 8y ago
People in the Nordic countries have a different expectation of privacy. Just search for the plethora of papers in economics and finance that use "Swedish/Danish/Finnish data". While anonymized, you can get a look at spending and investment of the whole population. After you move to a new place, you get a personalized onslaught of mail welcoming you the neighbourhood. Everything you do is connected to the personnummer (social security number), including loyalty cards in shops.

walshemj 8y ago

The mental tax of having £100 in your wallet? this is hardly a serious problem for most people.

sfcguyus 8y ago

As someone who' seen both the cashless and society with cash. The cash one is better.

yxhuvud 8y ago

It is the future, but there are at the same time a lot of unsolved problems involved. Tourists not being able to pay unless they happen to have a VISA card is one, old people not understanding technology another. And the dependence on the private sector for cash that the article refers to is also a real problem. But I do agree with the premise that it is progress in action, it just isn't the case that we are moving towards a steady state but the end goal is still constantly evolving.

type0 8y ago

> The govt is still run by the people for the people here, so most people aren't worried about totalitarianism. They should, it's just stupid not to care about democracy and your own freedom.