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The "Lenin was a great man even in childhood" legend that I heard involves him eating apples that his mother told him not to, and then later his conscience nags

The "Lenin was a great man even in childhood" legend that I heard involves him eating apples that his mother told him not to, and then later his conscience nags him for it. In any event, Lenin was subjected to the same mythologization as George Washington who supposedly cut down a cherry tree and confessed to it.[1] [1] https://www.mountvernon.org/library/digitalhistory/digital-encyclopedia/article/cherry-tree-myth/ https://www.mountvernon.org/library/digitalhistory/digital-e...

weinzierl 8y ago
I still think there is an important difference here that made the joke[1] work in the USSR. I believe it wouldn't have worked in the US the same way. In America, when children grow up, parents could have that talk with them about how George Washington really was a great guy and how much they appreciate if their children wouldn't cut down the cherry tree in the garden but also about how this story about George Washington is just that - a story. I wasn't there at the time, so this is just my take on it: I imagine in the USSR it could have been dangerous to talk to children like that and one way out was to exaggerate the stories until the child notices what's going on. Now daddy Sergei Kurekhin was doing that to the whole Soviet Union - and that's why they laughed about it. [1] I call it a joke and not a hoax, because I think hoax kind of misses the point. I wasn't there at the time but this is my opinion: I don't think anyone believed it, I think people didn't say so partly because they didn't want to destroy the joke and partly because this was still the USSR.
- dec0dedab0de 8y ago
  Annecdotal Hear-say, but I have spoken to a few people who grew up under the Soviets. They all had stories of their parents being very explicit about what was happening and being told exactly what they could not say in public. Then again these are people who ended up in the US so maybe they were atypical.
- the_grue 8y ago
  No, this is totally not how it was. People used to speak quite freely at home (aside from when Stalin was in power, and even then).
  - Viliam1234 8y ago
    You can't speak freely at home when your little children hear you, because there is a risk they will repeat your words in public, which can get you in trouble. It's probably also quite dangerous with teenagers around; they may get a wrong idea about appearing cool to their peers by saying something that can't be say, and then get reported on. First, you need to make sure your children understand the magnitude of danger from repeating what they heard at home. That requires some maturity and intelligence, but more importantly the idea that "there are important truths that you can get punished for saying in a wrong place" is itself one of those important truths that you can get punished for saying in a wrong place, so you either need to approach this very very carefully or take a risk and hope for the best.
    - the_grue 8y ago
      Are you talking out of experience or just theorizing? Because I was there. People were telling Gorbachov & Reagan jokes all the time in their kitchens, that was just a normal part of life.
      - Fins 8y ago
        Gorbachev and Reagan, sure. Even Brezhnev and Carter. But by then you'd have to tell particularly strong ones to get sent to a labor camp, unlike under previous regimes.
        the_grue 8y ago
        Well, I was born in the 80's, so I only witnessed that. However the famous Soviet "kitchen conversations" existed even before that.
- baybal2 8y ago
  The very point was that at least some double digit portion of population actually did. The point is also that there is a not that small category of people who are ready to believe really everything for as long as they hear that from a smart looking guy in a suite, and it is "dumb and simple enough to believe." This the very thing going on now in Easter Europe with ultraright maxim "refugees steal your welfare" and "Soros conspiracy" Now, this is being weaponized big time, against the US this time. It took Kremlin probably just few hundred man hours to make one of such guys to attempt assassination of Hillary Clinton. Now imagine how things will turn if they will double down on that.

weinzierl 8y ago

I still think there is an important difference here that made the joke[1] work in the USSR. I believe it wouldn't have worked in the US the same way. In America, when children grow up, parents could have that talk with them about how George Washington really was a great guy and how much they appreciate if their children wouldn't cut down the cherry tree in the garden but also about how this story about George Washington is just that - a story. I wasn't there at the time, so this is just my take on it: I imagine in the USSR it could have been dangerous to talk to children like that and one way out was to exaggerate the stories until the child notices what's going on. Now daddy Sergei Kurekhin was doing that to the whole Soviet Union - and that's why they laughed about it. [1] I call it a joke and not a hoax, because I think hoax kind of misses the point. I wasn't there at the time but this is my opinion: I don't think anyone believed it, I think people didn't say so partly because they didn't want to destroy the joke and partly because this was still the USSR.

dec0dedab0de 8y ago
Annecdotal Hear-say, but I have spoken to a few people who grew up under the Soviets. They all had stories of their parents being very explicit about what was happening and being told exactly what they could not say in public. Then again these are people who ended up in the US so maybe they were atypical.
the_grue 8y ago
No, this is totally not how it was. People used to speak quite freely at home (aside from when Stalin was in power, and even then).
- Viliam1234 8y ago
  You can't speak freely at home when your little children hear you, because there is a risk they will repeat your words in public, which can get you in trouble. It's probably also quite dangerous with teenagers around; they may get a wrong idea about appearing cool to their peers by saying something that can't be say, and then get reported on. First, you need to make sure your children understand the magnitude of danger from repeating what they heard at home. That requires some maturity and intelligence, but more importantly the idea that "there are important truths that you can get punished for saying in a wrong place" is itself one of those important truths that you can get punished for saying in a wrong place, so you either need to approach this very very carefully or take a risk and hope for the best.
  - the_grue 8y ago
    Are you talking out of experience or just theorizing? Because I was there. People were telling Gorbachov & Reagan jokes all the time in their kitchens, that was just a normal part of life.
    - Fins 8y ago
      Gorbachev and Reagan, sure. Even Brezhnev and Carter. But by then you'd have to tell particularly strong ones to get sent to a labor camp, unlike under previous regimes.
      - the_grue 8y ago
        Well, I was born in the 80's, so I only witnessed that. However the famous Soviet "kitchen conversations" existed even before that.
baybal2 8y ago
The very point was that at least some double digit portion of population actually did. The point is also that there is a not that small category of people who are ready to believe really everything for as long as they hear that from a smart looking guy in a suite, and it is "dumb and simple enough to believe." This the very thing going on now in Easter Europe with ultraright maxim "refugees steal your welfare" and "Soros conspiracy" Now, this is being weaponized big time, against the US this time. It took Kremlin probably just few hundred man hours to make one of such guys to attempt assassination of Hillary Clinton. Now imagine how things will turn if they will double down on that.