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I look forward to no longer having to deal with the absurd complexity of the internal combustion engine: pistons, cylinders, crankshafts, distributors, oil pump

I look forward to no longer having to deal with the absurd complexity of the internal combustion engine: pistons, cylinders, crankshafts, distributors, oil pumps, water pumps, radiators, valves, belts, mufflers... The fact that this finally works semi-reliably is a testament to the genius of the engineers and managers of the automobile industry. Remember that wherever there is a gasoline pump, there is electricity, and the possibility of a charging station. One day the internal combustion vehicle will be seen as quaint as a horse defecating in the street.

chrisseaton 8y ago
> I look forward to no longer having to deal with the absurd complexity of the internal combustion engine: pistons, cylinders, crankshafts, distributors, oil pumps, water pumps, radiators, valves, belts, mufflers... I'm looking forward to pervasive electric cars as well, but really how much of this 'absurd complexity' do you need to deal with in a conventional car? And how exactly do you have to 'deal with' it? You get a mechanic to look at for a couple of hours once a year and that's it. You could dramatically list all the complex components in an electric vehicle - down to the microscopic integrated circuits - as well and say that they all need to be 'dealt with' because it's serviced once a year.
- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  >>You get a mechanic to look at for a couple of hours once a year and that's it. The problem in taking it there as much as is paying for the privilege :) Does anyone know if electric cars have less problems that require expensive repairs?
  - nordsieck 8y ago
    > Does anyone know if electric cars have less problems that require expensive repairs? My impression from watching a few Youtube videos of Tesla owners who are not in warranty [0] is that they aren't actually very cheap to run. In theory, they should be inexpensive - electricity < gas and there are physically fewer parts, but it sounds like there were substantial teething pains. We'll see if/when they got to Toyota levels of reliability. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq5c4jGR2gM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq5c4jGR2gM
- varjag 8y ago
  The manufacturer recommended maintenance schedule for our EV consists of rotating tires, checking braking fluid and changing salon air filter.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    Right so that isn’t much less than a conventional car? My Land Rover has one three-hour service once a year. Is an EV done in one hour? Doesn’t seem like a huge difference.
    - varjag 8y ago
      No, this is a lot less work than conventional car would see for the same 7 years. Basically there's no need to get to dealership service.
stefan_ 8y ago
You are swapping what is ultimately a stupendously simple mechanical system where any given garage worker can reliably identify the cause of faults for one with unassailable complexity on circuit boards where a single transistor failure can mean loss of all forward movement and the only economic repair will be "swap the board". I think as humans we have a better chance of making the circuit board more reliable than the assortment of mechanical gadgets in a modern car, but independent repair is dead.
- jjoonathan 8y ago
  And with it, economic repair is dead. Since we have both systems today -- a dealer/warranty sphere and an independent repair sphere -- it's easy to compare the two and to realize just what kind of nightmare we're signing up for by putting control into the hands of the manufacturer.
  - beambot 8y ago
    Or... We could shift the model to one of purchasing miles, wherein we pay for actual transportation rather than vehicles. Think of it like paying for thrust on jet engines rather than the engine itself. Then manufacturers are incentivized to optimize lifetime, efficiency, and maintainability rather than selling new engines.
jjoonathan 8y ago
You look forward to "not having to worry about" a healthy network of independent service and parts manufacturers and instead pay 3x as much to have a service technician press a button to allow your car to continue operation every year until it reaches the planned obsolescence age and the manufacturer forces you to discard your perfectly functional car for "safety reasons"?
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  I certainly don't look forward to this future, but keep in mind that the maintenance cost of an EV will be insignificant (compared to an ICE) so that makes it hard to expect people to resist this trend.
ethagknight 8y ago
You do realize an electric vehicle has a radiator, right? Gotta keep the battery and cabin cool. This argument is so overdramatic and persistent that it sounds like astroturfing from a PR shop. A modern car can run for a decade or more with even modest maintenance. My next car will probably be electric, and it’s purely an economic decision. I’ve never touched my cars crankshafts or mufflers, and it isn’t a hassle to own one. When my cars have issues, it’s the sunroof, the cheapo “luxury” interior finishes, the infotainment system controls. Rarely do I have a true mechanical failure. The IC engine is a modern marvel, not a horse shitting in the street, and an electric drive vehicle is also complex. To the end user, both electric motors and gas engines accelerate when you press the pedal, and my experience doesn’t really change beyond either I plug my car in every night or get gas every week. From Tesla forum: The Tesla thermal management system is fairly complex, using a compressor in a standard cooling cycle to provide cooling for cabin air, battery, and motor. Each of cabin, motor and battery have their own sealed coolant loops, but are thermally connected together by heat exchangers and in some cases, by fluidic valves. Two of the coolant loops use radiators and coolant very similar to what ICE cars have. (Edited this comment extensively for completeness.)

chrisseaton 8y ago

> I look forward to no longer having to deal with the absurd complexity of the internal combustion engine: pistons, cylinders, crankshafts, distributors, oil pumps, water pumps, radiators, valves, belts, mufflers... I'm looking forward to pervasive electric cars as well, but really how much of this 'absurd complexity' do you need to deal with in a conventional car? And how exactly do you have to 'deal with' it? You get a mechanic to look at for a couple of hours once a year and that's it. You could dramatically list all the complex components in an electric vehicle - down to the microscopic integrated circuits - as well and say that they all need to be 'dealt with' because it's serviced once a year.

onetimemanytime 8y ago
>>You get a mechanic to look at for a couple of hours once a year and that's it. The problem in taking it there as much as is paying for the privilege :) Does anyone know if electric cars have less problems that require expensive repairs?
- nordsieck 8y ago
  > Does anyone know if electric cars have less problems that require expensive repairs? My impression from watching a few Youtube videos of Tesla owners who are not in warranty [0] is that they aren't actually very cheap to run. In theory, they should be inexpensive - electricity < gas and there are physically fewer parts, but it sounds like there were substantial teething pains. We'll see if/when they got to Toyota levels of reliability. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq5c4jGR2gM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq5c4jGR2gM
varjag 8y ago
The manufacturer recommended maintenance schedule for our EV consists of rotating tires, checking braking fluid and changing salon air filter.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  Right so that isn’t much less than a conventional car? My Land Rover has one three-hour service once a year. Is an EV done in one hour? Doesn’t seem like a huge difference.
  - varjag 8y ago
    No, this is a lot less work than conventional car would see for the same 7 years. Basically there's no need to get to dealership service.

stefan_ 8y ago

You are swapping what is ultimately a stupendously simple mechanical system where any given garage worker can reliably identify the cause of faults for one with unassailable complexity on circuit boards where a single transistor failure can mean loss of all forward movement and the only economic repair will be "swap the board". I think as humans we have a better chance of making the circuit board more reliable than the assortment of mechanical gadgets in a modern car, but independent repair is dead.

jjoonathan 8y ago
And with it, economic repair is dead. Since we have both systems today -- a dealer/warranty sphere and an independent repair sphere -- it's easy to compare the two and to realize just what kind of nightmare we're signing up for by putting control into the hands of the manufacturer.
- beambot 8y ago
  Or... We could shift the model to one of purchasing miles, wherein we pay for actual transportation rather than vehicles. Think of it like paying for thrust on jet engines rather than the engine itself. Then manufacturers are incentivized to optimize lifetime, efficiency, and maintainability rather than selling new engines.

jjoonathan 8y ago

You look forward to "not having to worry about" a healthy network of independent service and parts manufacturers and instead pay 3x as much to have a service technician press a button to allow your car to continue operation every year until it reaches the planned obsolescence age and the manufacturer forces you to discard your perfectly functional car for "safety reasons"?

rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
I certainly don't look forward to this future, but keep in mind that the maintenance cost of an EV will be insignificant (compared to an ICE) so that makes it hard to expect people to resist this trend.

ethagknight 8y ago

You do realize an electric vehicle has a radiator, right? Gotta keep the battery and cabin cool. This argument is so overdramatic and persistent that it sounds like astroturfing from a PR shop. A modern car can run for a decade or more with even modest maintenance. My next car will probably be electric, and it’s purely an economic decision. I’ve never touched my cars crankshafts or mufflers, and it isn’t a hassle to own one. When my cars have issues, it’s the sunroof, the cheapo “luxury” interior finishes, the infotainment system controls. Rarely do I have a true mechanical failure. The IC engine is a modern marvel, not a horse shitting in the street, and an electric drive vehicle is also complex. To the end user, both electric motors and gas engines accelerate when you press the pedal, and my experience doesn’t really change beyond either I plug my car in every night or get gas every week. From Tesla forum: The Tesla thermal management system is fairly complex, using a compressor in a standard cooling cycle to provide cooling for cabin air, battery, and motor. Each of cabin, motor and battery have their own sealed coolant loops, but are thermally connected together by heat exchangers and in some cases, by fluidic valves. Two of the coolant loops use radiators and coolant very similar to what ICE cars have. (Edited this comment extensively for completeness.)