7 ms·

It's absolutely health-related. Menthol is a mild anaesthetic (remember menthol sports cream?) and permits the inexperienced smoker to inhale fully. Same with t

It's absolutely health-related. Menthol is a mild anaesthetic (remember menthol sports cream?) and permits the inexperienced smoker to inhale fully. Same with the eugenol in kretek cigarettes.

kodablah 8y ago
While the heath related differences exist, they exist in several different forms of tobacco consumption. The proposed ban is coming at the same time as the proposal for banning all flavored-except-menthol ecigs. By your logic, menthol flavored ecigs would also encourage more inhalation which is also worse and should be banned with the other flavors, but it's not. Why? Because it's, admittedly, more about the type of consumer and it's a government-mandated step down program. It's more about what's politically acceptable to ban than health related. While it may have benefits (prohibition cut drinking in half), if anything, it's a trial balloon. I believe the general war on tobacco to be rooted in health concerns, but I believe this action to be a test to confirm the societal acceptance of this approach.
- HarryHirsch 8y ago
  You don't need anything to numb your lungs to inhale deeply from a vape. And I think that Juul & similar should be banned because of the addiction potential, the way they deliver nicotine is designed to resemble cigarettes.
  - BurningFrog 8y ago
    But there isn't much health danger from being just addicted to nicotine. It's probably comparable to caffeine. What makes cigarettes so lethal is all the other toxins.
    - provolone 8y ago
      Aside from the risks of smoking (tar etc. like you said) nicotine has some health benefits. To the extent that it is used as a supplement by some. https://examine.com/supplements/nicotine/ https://examine.com/supplements/nicotine/
      - Mirioron 8y ago
        It's also being looked at as a new ADHD drug, but its addictiveness makes it difficult.
        snuxoll 8y ago
        Yeah, because the amphetamines we currently use to treat ADHD aren’t addictive at all.
        dreyfiz 8y ago
        Being looked at by whom?
    - oliwarner 8y ago
      Nicotine suppresses elastin synthesis. Actively harms alveoli in lungs, and skin condition.
      - udp 8y ago
        As a regular user of nicotine lozenges, I’m struggling to work out how my lung alveoli are going to be affected.
        bunderbunder 8y ago
        Elastin is an important protein in tissues that need to be elastic to function well, such as alveoli. For example, the breakdown of elastin is a major mechanism for the breathing difficulties suffered by people with emphysema. Which isn't to say that lozenges are likely to cause it - it's still primarily caused by inhaling irritants - just using it to illustrate how something that interferes with elastin production might affect your breathing, even if you aren't inhaling it.
        oliwarner 8y ago
        In short: Your alveoli all have blood supplies. It's the same mechanism that smoking damages your skin. Nicotine in your blood gets everywhere. It affects elastin production throughout your body. Smoking is a multi-stage attack on alveoli. You're both physically damaging them with the smoke and inhibiting their ability to regenerate. But they're a high-use tissue. Even without the additional damage, you're harming their ability to regrow.
    - kweinber 8y ago
      Nicotine use alters cholesterol. It raises your LDL and constricts your blood vessels.
    - sandworm101 8y ago
      Nicotine and caffeine are very different biologically. Caffeine addiction is not nearly as powerful. There are upper bounds to the biological effect of caffeine.
      - BurningFrog 8y ago
        Addiction in itself is not harmful at all. It just means you have to keep using the substance, not that it's harmful in itself, as long as you take it.
  - Mirioron 8y ago
    Why should it be banned? Just because something is addictive doesn't mean it's bad outright. Caffeine is addictive. Should we ban that too? Nicotine itself isn't much more harmful than caffeine.
    - madaxe_again 8y ago
      The UK is (probably) banning caffeine for under 18s, so it appears that governments think “yes”. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45342682 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45342682
      - claydavisss 8y ago
        Along with a knife ban, the UK is turning into a tidy little nerfed dystopia. You'll be safe enough to obey. .....aaaaand this is why I wont give up my guns, ever, ever.
      - eigenstuff 8y ago
        For a second I thought you were saying the UK was going full mormon for kids but then I clicked the articles and realized it was just energy drinks specifically (which imo isn't a terrible idea). I was gonna say, tho, if they were gonna ban ALL caffeine for kids under 18, oh boy Coca Cola would have a shit fit I'm sure.
fromthestart 8y ago
Have you ever smoked a cigarette in your life? You don't know what you're talking about.
- bbarn 8y ago
  When my father quit for periods of time, he would always start up again on menthols because the volume he smoked hurt too much with his Marlboro reds, and he said the menthols made it easier. Yes, it is that addictive that he would knowingly switch to menthols to help him ramp back up again.
  - fromthestart 8y ago
    To be frank, his anecdote conflicts with my own. It is pure speculation that inhaling menthol actually creates an analgesic effect which works towards the sensation of smoke in the lungs. I find mentholated cigarettes harsher, because menthol has a certain heat to it not unlike peppermint.
WillPostForFood 8y ago
Same with sugar in alcoholic beverages. Or salt on red meat.
- Valmar 8y ago
  Both just work so well together. :) Also, salt in meat and vege stews ~ if you have nothing else in terms of flavour, salt makes it infinitely more appetizing.
- madaxe_again 8y ago
  You jest, but here in the UK, where menthols were banned several years ago, we tax sugar in beverages (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43659124 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43659124), and food producers are under pressure to cut salt and sugar from their products (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/salt-reduction-targets-for-2017 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/salt-reduction-ta...). I understand the rationale behind this prohibitionist, paternalistic approach (maintain a healthy work/consumption force, reduce burden on socialised healthcare, improve GDP), but the additional cost to the economy is already built in to these goods - smoke tax (it’s not just tobacco, it’s anything you could burn and inhale) in the uk more than covers the cost of smoking related illness.
  - wrboyce 8y ago
    Menthols are still available in the UK today, I believe they are slated for removal from the market in 2020. What has been removed from the UK market is "10 decks", we can only buy 20s now.
  - DanBC 8y ago
    > smoke tax (it’s not just tobacco, it’s anything you could burn and inhale) in the uk more than covers the cost of smoking related illness. ...according to the people who sell cigarettes.
    - gaius 8y ago
      ...according to the people who sell cigarettes Smoking related illnesses in the UK cost the NHS (taxpayers) around £5Bn year, and taxes on tobacco raise around £9Bn. So it's pretty close, but that £4Bn gap will need to be made up from somewhere. Personally I'd legalise the wacky tobaccy and tax that, but there really ought to be equivalent taxes on vaping too. Also if life expectancy goes up, there will be an even greater shortfall in pensions too.
pnloyd 8y ago
This is completely true. I started smoking at 17 with menthols because they tasted good to me and were easier to inhale. Switched to regular after I got used to them.
IronBacon 8y ago
I would also ban the mixing of substances that have a bronchodilator effect with the excuse of improving taste. Yup, ammonia will totally improve the taste.

It's absolutely health-related. Menthol is a mild anaesthetic (remember menthol sports cream?) and permits the inexperienced smoker to inhale fully. Same with the eugenol in kretek cigarettes.

kodablah 8y ago

While the heath related differences exist, they exist in several different forms of tobacco consumption. The proposed ban is coming at the same time as the proposal for banning all flavored-except-menthol ecigs. By your logic, menthol flavored ecigs would also encourage more inhalation which is also worse and should be banned with the other flavors, but it's not. Why? Because it's, admittedly, more about the type of consumer and it's a government-mandated step down program. It's more about what's politically acceptable to ban than health related. While it may have benefits (prohibition cut drinking in half), if anything, it's a trial balloon. I believe the general war on tobacco to be rooted in health concerns, but I believe this action to be a test to confirm the societal acceptance of this approach.

HarryHirsch 8y ago
You don't need anything to numb your lungs to inhale deeply from a vape. And I think that Juul & similar should be banned because of the addiction potential, the way they deliver nicotine is designed to resemble cigarettes.
- BurningFrog 8y ago
  But there isn't much health danger from being just addicted to nicotine. It's probably comparable to caffeine. What makes cigarettes so lethal is all the other toxins.
  - provolone 8y ago
    Aside from the risks of smoking (tar etc. like you said) nicotine has some health benefits. To the extent that it is used as a supplement by some. https://examine.com/supplements/nicotine/ https://examine.com/supplements/nicotine/
    - Mirioron 8y ago
      It's also being looked at as a new ADHD drug, but its addictiveness makes it difficult.
      - snuxoll 8y ago
        Yeah, because the amphetamines we currently use to treat ADHD aren’t addictive at all.
      - dreyfiz 8y ago
        Being looked at by whom?
  - oliwarner 8y ago
    Nicotine suppresses elastin synthesis. Actively harms alveoli in lungs, and skin condition.
    - udp 8y ago
      As a regular user of nicotine lozenges, I’m struggling to work out how my lung alveoli are going to be affected.
      - bunderbunder 8y ago
        Elastin is an important protein in tissues that need to be elastic to function well, such as alveoli. For example, the breakdown of elastin is a major mechanism for the breathing difficulties suffered by people with emphysema. Which isn't to say that lozenges are likely to cause it - it's still primarily caused by inhaling irritants - just using it to illustrate how something that interferes with elastin production might affect your breathing, even if you aren't inhaling it.
      - oliwarner 8y ago
        In short: Your alveoli all have blood supplies. It's the same mechanism that smoking damages your skin. Nicotine in your blood gets everywhere. It affects elastin production throughout your body. Smoking is a multi-stage attack on alveoli. You're both physically damaging them with the smoke and inhibiting their ability to regenerate. But they're a high-use tissue. Even without the additional damage, you're harming their ability to regrow.
  - kweinber 8y ago
    Nicotine use alters cholesterol. It raises your LDL and constricts your blood vessels.
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    Nicotine and caffeine are very different biologically. Caffeine addiction is not nearly as powerful. There are upper bounds to the biological effect of caffeine.
    - BurningFrog 8y ago
      Addiction in itself is not harmful at all. It just means you have to keep using the substance, not that it's harmful in itself, as long as you take it.
- Mirioron 8y ago
  Why should it be banned? Just because something is addictive doesn't mean it's bad outright. Caffeine is addictive. Should we ban that too? Nicotine itself isn't much more harmful than caffeine.
  - madaxe_again 8y ago
    The UK is (probably) banning caffeine for under 18s, so it appears that governments think “yes”. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45342682 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45342682
    - claydavisss 8y ago
      Along with a knife ban, the UK is turning into a tidy little nerfed dystopia. You'll be safe enough to obey. .....aaaaand this is why I wont give up my guns, ever, ever.
    - eigenstuff 8y ago
      For a second I thought you were saying the UK was going full mormon for kids but then I clicked the articles and realized it was just energy drinks specifically (which imo isn't a terrible idea). I was gonna say, tho, if they were gonna ban ALL caffeine for kids under 18, oh boy Coca Cola would have a shit fit I'm sure.

fromthestart 8y ago

Have you ever smoked a cigarette in your life? You don't know what you're talking about.

bbarn 8y ago
When my father quit for periods of time, he would always start up again on menthols because the volume he smoked hurt too much with his Marlboro reds, and he said the menthols made it easier. Yes, it is that addictive that he would knowingly switch to menthols to help him ramp back up again.
- fromthestart 8y ago
  To be frank, his anecdote conflicts with my own. It is pure speculation that inhaling menthol actually creates an analgesic effect which works towards the sensation of smoke in the lungs. I find mentholated cigarettes harsher, because menthol has a certain heat to it not unlike peppermint.

WillPostForFood 8y ago

Same with sugar in alcoholic beverages. Or salt on red meat.

Valmar 8y ago
Both just work so well together. :) Also, salt in meat and vege stews ~ if you have nothing else in terms of flavour, salt makes it infinitely more appetizing.
madaxe_again 8y ago
You jest, but here in the UK, where menthols were banned several years ago, we tax sugar in beverages (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43659124 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43659124), and food producers are under pressure to cut salt and sugar from their products (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/salt-reduction-targets-for-2017 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/salt-reduction-ta...). I understand the rationale behind this prohibitionist, paternalistic approach (maintain a healthy work/consumption force, reduce burden on socialised healthcare, improve GDP), but the additional cost to the economy is already built in to these goods - smoke tax (it’s not just tobacco, it’s anything you could burn and inhale) in the uk more than covers the cost of smoking related illness.
- wrboyce 8y ago
  Menthols are still available in the UK today, I believe they are slated for removal from the market in 2020. What has been removed from the UK market is "10 decks", we can only buy 20s now.
- DanBC 8y ago
  > smoke tax (it’s not just tobacco, it’s anything you could burn and inhale) in the uk more than covers the cost of smoking related illness. ...according to the people who sell cigarettes.
  - gaius 8y ago
    ...according to the people who sell cigarettes Smoking related illnesses in the UK cost the NHS (taxpayers) around £5Bn year, and taxes on tobacco raise around £9Bn. So it's pretty close, but that £4Bn gap will need to be made up from somewhere. Personally I'd legalise the wacky tobaccy and tax that, but there really ought to be equivalent taxes on vaping too. Also if life expectancy goes up, there will be an even greater shortfall in pensions too.

pnloyd 8y ago

This is completely true. I started smoking at 17 with menthols because they tasted good to me and were easier to inhale. Switched to regular after I got used to them.

IronBacon 8y ago

I would also ban the mixing of substances that have a bronchodilator effect with the excuse of improving taste. Yup, ammonia will totally improve the taste.