4 ms·

No, this is not some conspiracy theory by a few anecdotal players. This is a quite well-documented phenomenon well-known to small business owners across a wide

by ex3xu 8y ago

No, this is not some conspiracy theory by a few anecdotal players. This is a quite well-documented phenomenon well-known to small business owners across a wide variety of industries. I understand that the instinct is "There's no way a big company could be doing something so obviously unethical and get away with it". But just do your own research, there's articles detailing sales calls that literally offer to remove bad reviews. Only Yelp has algorithmic control over what reviews get put into "not recommended", and one of the "coincidences" that happen after these calls is that 5 star reviews start disappearing. And do you think it is a coincidence that those positive reviews get restored after a business pays for advertising services? Yelp has been involved in class acton lawsuits for this behavior no fewer than three times, and while they deny everything the court ruling astoundlingly claimed that this behavior isn't illegal or extortionary: https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Yelp-can-give-paying-clients-better-ratings-5731200.php https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Yelp-can-give-paying-cli...

istjohn 8y ago
> and one of the "coincidences" that happen after these calls is that 5 star reviews start disappearing. And do you think it is a coincidence that those positive reviews get restored after a business pays for advertising services? This is hearsay that is quoted in the article you link to, but I would like to see proof of positive reviews being restored after purchasing advertising. This would not be difficult to document if it is happening. Lawsuits in which Yelp has prevailed are not compelling evidence for the claims of malfeasance.
1024core 8y ago
> No, this is not some conspiracy theory by a few anecdotal players. I've been working in the search engine industry for more than 15 years (as in, worked on core ranking algorithms and other infrastructure for a long time). I've heard similar reports countless times about ranking algorithms that our team controlled, and it was all just speculation. Once again: Yelp has been around for 10+ years. By now, surely someone will have iron-clad proof that they paid to get bad reviews removed. I have not seen any.
- ex3xu 8y ago
  You can try this guy for proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C67Lh4LE5LY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C67Lh4LE5LY Though if you already have confirmation bias that anyone who complains of a large company of shady behavior is a crazy nut, maybe this conversation chain is simply a waste of time. Without access to Yelp internals, it's always possible to just write it off as hearsay. Especially when, if you read my post, the courts have ruled that this behavior is not racketeering, even if it passes the duck test for extortion in my view. The logical explanation offered in the video is that the salespeople themselves are the ones leaving the reviews, not sanctioned by Yelp higher ups. I worked a year doing web development and SEO for an agency that specialized in small local businesses, and enough of my clients had had similar experiences with the "Not Recommended" review algorithm after receiving harassing telemarketing calls from Yelp that I just assume that there's something shady going on. I honestly just think their business model is structured poorly. Too many perverse incentives involved. I won't be sad to see them go.
  - 1024core 8y ago
    > Though if you already have confirmation bias You don't have to throw such claims around. If anything, they further weaken your case. I watched the first couple of minutes of the video you posted. Even if we take that guy's word for it, you're talking about ONE salesperson. One bad actor. That's it. Which company doesn't have asshole sales people? You are making a stronger claim: that Yelp itself is a bad actor. That, my friend, requires a much higher bar for proof. Look, as I mentioned earlier, I used to work on building ranking algorithms for search engines (no, not Google). In the early days of the Internet (i.e, 15 years ago), there were lots of 3rd party people pulling off stunts like this salesperson. You can call any business today, and try to get protection money (on Yelp) off of them. That doesn't make you a Yelp employee!
    - ex3xu 8y ago
      You're right, I apologize for implying the presence confirmation bias and I don't mean it as a personal attack. I just wanted to express that when you immediately discredit the anecdotal experience of others in favor of your own anecdotal experience, it may be a sign of confirmation bias. But I guess that kind of implication comes with connotations that I didn't intend. Basically, I want to draw your attention to the fact that the salesperson in that video did work for Yelp at the time. Doesn't that on its own distinguish the behavior that's happening at yelp with your experience with third party scammers? Maybe the Wells Fargo scandal from a few years back can be a reference here. If a company is structured in a way where salespeople are incentivized to misbehave for their own personal interest, shouldn't that company be held accountable? Anyway, you're right that I'm wrong to claim with certainty that Yelp is a bad actor. I don't have proof beyond dealing with 5 star reviews for clients locked behind Yelp's "Not recommended". But any company with a monetization scheme that in practice boils down to cold calling and harrassing small businesses, is a company against which I have no problem jumping on any bandwagon that comes my way.

by ex3xu 8y ago

istjohn 8y ago

> and one of the "coincidences" that happen after these calls is that 5 star reviews start disappearing. And do you think it is a coincidence that those positive reviews get restored after a business pays for advertising services? This is hearsay that is quoted in the article you link to, but I would like to see proof of positive reviews being restored after purchasing advertising. This would not be difficult to document if it is happening. Lawsuits in which Yelp has prevailed are not compelling evidence for the claims of malfeasance.

1024core 8y ago

> No, this is not some conspiracy theory by a few anecdotal players. I've been working in the search engine industry for more than 15 years (as in, worked on core ranking algorithms and other infrastructure for a long time). I've heard similar reports countless times about ranking algorithms that our team controlled, and it was all just speculation. Once again: Yelp has been around for 10+ years. By now, surely someone will have iron-clad proof that they paid to get bad reviews removed. I have not seen any.

ex3xu 8y ago
You can try this guy for proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C67Lh4LE5LY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C67Lh4LE5LY Though if you already have confirmation bias that anyone who complains of a large company of shady behavior is a crazy nut, maybe this conversation chain is simply a waste of time. Without access to Yelp internals, it's always possible to just write it off as hearsay. Especially when, if you read my post, the courts have ruled that this behavior is not racketeering, even if it passes the duck test for extortion in my view. The logical explanation offered in the video is that the salespeople themselves are the ones leaving the reviews, not sanctioned by Yelp higher ups. I worked a year doing web development and SEO for an agency that specialized in small local businesses, and enough of my clients had had similar experiences with the "Not Recommended" review algorithm after receiving harassing telemarketing calls from Yelp that I just assume that there's something shady going on. I honestly just think their business model is structured poorly. Too many perverse incentives involved. I won't be sad to see them go.
- 1024core 8y ago
  > Though if you already have confirmation bias You don't have to throw such claims around. If anything, they further weaken your case. I watched the first couple of minutes of the video you posted. Even if we take that guy's word for it, you're talking about ONE salesperson. One bad actor. That's it. Which company doesn't have asshole sales people? You are making a stronger claim: that Yelp itself is a bad actor. That, my friend, requires a much higher bar for proof. Look, as I mentioned earlier, I used to work on building ranking algorithms for search engines (no, not Google). In the early days of the Internet (i.e, 15 years ago), there were lots of 3rd party people pulling off stunts like this salesperson. You can call any business today, and try to get protection money (on Yelp) off of them. That doesn't make you a Yelp employee!
  - ex3xu 8y ago
    You're right, I apologize for implying the presence confirmation bias and I don't mean it as a personal attack. I just wanted to express that when you immediately discredit the anecdotal experience of others in favor of your own anecdotal experience, it may be a sign of confirmation bias. But I guess that kind of implication comes with connotations that I didn't intend. Basically, I want to draw your attention to the fact that the salesperson in that video did work for Yelp at the time. Doesn't that on its own distinguish the behavior that's happening at yelp with your experience with third party scammers? Maybe the Wells Fargo scandal from a few years back can be a reference here. If a company is structured in a way where salespeople are incentivized to misbehave for their own personal interest, shouldn't that company be held accountable? Anyway, you're right that I'm wrong to claim with certainty that Yelp is a bad actor. I don't have proof beyond dealing with 5 star reviews for clients locked behind Yelp's "Not recommended". But any company with a monetization scheme that in practice boils down to cold calling and harrassing small businesses, is a company against which I have no problem jumping on any bandwagon that comes my way.