9 ms·

Speaking as someone from the UK, I'm a little alarmed that you have to pay to enter national parks in the first place. Are they all that busy?

tcdent 8y ago
I live near Joshua Tree National Park. We pull upwards of 3 million visitors each year and growing. Expecting this weekend will be extremely busy around town.
- newman8r 8y ago
  I've got a 5 acre parcel in that area as well, wonder valley. I've talked to at least one other HN user who lives out there too. Perfect time of year to be out there, it's like beach weather.
  - Rebelgecko 8y ago
    I would not have guessed that there would be any HN users in Wonder Valley. Do you have any sort of structure on the property, or just a lot? What (if anything) do you do for water/electricity?
    - newman8r 8y ago
      I brought my trailer out there but it was vandalized. There's a small existing cement foundation where a building used to be (which is common for the parcels out there). I started basic work on some outbuildings using dry stone masonry (there's a rocky outcropping on about half of the property so there's an unlimited supply of big rocks) I started working on a well, but for water I mostly filled up my tanks at the Joshua Tree visitors center once a week (the water is free for the public). For power, I used a generator and a battery bank. I purchased some solar panels, but I decided not to put them in until I build a real cabin. For internet, I used cellular. Since there's a 100 foot outcropping on the property, I was able to get a great signal by setting that up on top of the hill.
- desas 8y ago
  I live near the Peak District National Park in the UK. It pulls 13 million people per year and is 550 square miles, which is much much smaller than Joshua Tree National Park
iscrewyou 8y ago
This is why the fee is charged: https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/fees-at-work.htm https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/fees-at-work.htm Ones near urban areas are usually busy. I’ve lived close to one and there’s usually a line on the weekend in the middle of the day to enter the park. It gets especially worse during holidays or when school is out during the summer. So I always make it a point to go during weekdays when school is in session.
- benatkin 8y ago
  That isn't why. That's why they say that it's charged. The government has other ways of collecting money and there are other ways they could prevent overtourism. I don't know all the reasons why it is the way it is, but people working for the NPS are the last people I'd trust to give a good answer on it.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    Come on. If you're going to a national park you're probably driving a significant distance, often flying, etc. The $20 or so admission fee is not remotely keeping anyone who would otherwise go to a national park from doing so. Maybe there's some weird corner case somewhere but it's reasonable to assume it's vanishingly rare. ADDED: And to be clear, I'm also strongly opposed to raising prices as a way to use market forces to depress use.
  - dnautics 8y ago
    If you prevent overtourism with quotas you will screw the underprivileged in other ways, e.g. by making it impossible for them to expend the time and effort to make it in under the quota.
- irrational 8y ago
  Even ones nowhere near an urban area, like Yellowstone, are extremely busy.
davidw 8y ago
A lot of them are. OTOH, we have a lot of other public lands that are free to use. This one's right near where I live, and clocks in at 7,300 square km. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deschutes_National_Forest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deschutes_National_Forest
teej 8y ago
America's national parks got 331 million visits last year. The most popular parks get very busy.
npsbackcountry 8y ago
Some are that busy, indeed. My base of operations takes >20 million visitors annually. The glitterati Parks like Yosemite, Yellowstone, or Zion are overrun. It’s a difficult situation compounded by lack of budget for staff and upkeep.
- outworlder 8y ago
  Went to Yosemite two weeks ago. The area around the visitor center is indeed packed full. Looked more like a city downtown, rather than a park. The rest of the park though? Crossed the park via the Tioga Pass to reach Mammoth Lakes (which is outside of the park). There was very low traffic and a handful of people. I feel that most people are concentrated in a few areas only, which should help. But the park is MASSIVE (takes almost 3h across by car). The entrance fee is a bargain considering how beautiful it is, and the sheer size of the area that has to be maintained and patrolled.
  - npsbackcountry 8y ago
    Grand Canyon of the Tuolumne for victory. I dont live or work in CA, but have hiked it and it’s known amongst backcountry employees to be the “secret,” best route in the park. Only mention it here because the sheer Kantian sublime will keep the hordes out ;)
    - chabes 8y ago
      Careful of the rattlesnakes back there. I almost got bit once when I was deep in the backcountry, and I would NOT want to be forced to find out what it takes to endure that situation
  - saltcured 8y ago
    To be fair, Tuolumne and the Tioga Road are already in their off-season where no overnight parking or camping is allowed and all services are closed. Anyone up there has to be on a day trip, unless they have a wilderness permit and either packed in a long distance or had someone drop them at a trailhead up there. During the summer months, Tioga Road can be clogged like an amusement park too. Also, while there is an entrance fee that applies per vehicle and gives you access for 7 days, there is also an NPS annual pass which costs about $100 and lets you enter every National Park and National Monument. So, you never have to pay more than approximately three Yosemite entrance fees in a single year, no matter how often you visit. When I was a kid, we also had a "Golden Eagle" pass which combined the NPS annual pass with similar unlimited access to all California State Parks. I haven't seen that option in a long time though.
ip26 8y ago
Worth noting in many cases the fee applies only to entering by vehicle, not bike or foot, and indeed many of the fees go towards accommodations for vehicles- roads, parking lots, traffic management, etc.
timtyrrell 8y ago
It is $80 a year to get an annual pass, not too bad if you visit a few.
KingPrad 8y ago
I'm American and have mixed feelings on this. National Parks can definitely be massive operations during the summer months so I understand charging a fee. But it also removes this public good from the poor and I think that's wrong. Maybe the park system provides free/cheap passes via welfare programs. I'm more concerned that many state parks charge up to $15/day usage fee. A fee just to enter and hike or play around a lake. I think that's very wrong. Simple fun in the outdoors ought to cheap recreation option - the cost to get there and whatever food you want to bring. It is gross that we fund these great places through taxes, then only those you can easily pay again can use them.
- glitcher 8y ago
  Similarly, it just feels plain wrong whenever there is a government shutdown and huge national parks are "closed". I'm sure there are good arguments on both side of this, but to me the idea that you can close a large expanse of wilderness seems absurd.
  - skissane 8y ago
    > it just feels plain wrong whenever there is a government shutdown I don't know why Americans put up with that silly government shutdown nonsense. In most countries that never happens. I think the solution is really simple – all a President has to do is call Congress' bluff and order the government to stay open, and to apply the previous budget on a pro rata basis. "But that's illegal!", people say. Well, it would violate the Antideficiency Act. But, the Antideficiency Act is rather toothless. Nobody has ever been prosecuted for violating it, and the President can always use prosecutorial discretion and the power of pardon to prevent any such prosecutions. Would the Supreme Court order the government to close? Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, the Supreme Court is very unpredictable. But, assuming it doesn't, Congress can either accept it, or impeach and remove the President. Given removal of a President requires a two-thirds vote of the Senate, it probably wouldn't happen.
    - Godel_unicode 8y ago
      We don't do monarchy in the United States. We believe in checks and balances, and limited power. Edit: also, the power of the purse is a matter of constitutional law, not the antideficiency act. The supreme court would absolutely order the government to close. No Federal employee would follow executive orders to violate congressional authority.
gumby 8y ago
The parks are heavily curated and managed — think of them as open air museums. Personally I don’t like visiting national parks because of this - I prefer the pretty unregulated wilderness and BLM land. But many people aren’t prepared for the wild (and it really is wild; there’s nothing like it in the UK, more like the Aussie bush in level of isolation) so these parks are great to get people exposed to the outdoors. Parks constitute a tiny percentage of public open land. And for the ones I’ve visited really have been built around special places (Grand Canyon, Yosemite, Larsen, etc) and why not? If it’s someone’s only exposure to nature why not make it the best. And I won’t have to see them when I’m in the desolation wilderness.
- robbyking 8y ago
  You can definitely get off the beaten path in National Parks, it's just that very few people choose to.
- davb 8y ago
  > The parks are heavily curated and managed — think of them as open air museums. Most museums in the UK are free to visit too. They generally have donation boxes which is a great way to let those who can afford to do so support the museum. And those who can't are not excluded.
  - throwaway427 8y ago
    The Smithsonian in DC is also free to visit. We aren't really talking about the same thing here. Many National Parks are massive properties with extensive ecological concerns and staff overhead. But they aren't even close to the sole extent of publicly owned land, that's where the BLM comes in. And there are the national grasslands and the forest service lands as well. We haven't even touched on state owned public lands or conservancy lands.
    - njarboe 8y ago
      The amount of land set aside for wilderness and parks in the US is amazing. More than all cities and towns (urban) combined. This webpage[1] as a lot of cool maps of US land use. [1]https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-land-use/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-land-use/
nickpp 8y ago
What I don't understand is why they are so cheap, especially in places like California where certain weekends are so crowded that trails get quota and lottery allocations. Surely a bidding system would lead to a better allocation of those (public) resources, finance the conservation and management costs and avoid the dreaded tragedy of commons...
- Marazan 8y ago
  And then poor people couldn't afford to go.
  - nickpp 8y ago
    Why? The less wanted parks or time slots could bid even under current costs.
    - joshuamcginnis 8y ago
      There is only one Yosemite.
      - nickpp 8y ago
        Indeed. And it certainly can't fit all 8 billion of us during the same 4th of July weekend.
        CobrastanJorji 8y ago
        Right. But your proposal maximizes profit but minimizes access for the poor. It's a good choice for a business, but profit isn't really the goal of national parks.
        nickpp 8y ago
        No, my proposal just solves the access allocation problem using the only mechanism we known for finding out the actual value of things: free markets. Profit is just a nice side benefit which you can use any way you like: to build more parks, improve access to existing ones or simply subsidies access for the poor during less requested periods.
garysahota93 8y ago
Many times, they are super busy, but the cost of admission really goes towards paying the Park Rangers and for overall upkeep of the park. Government funding decreases year over year, so these admissions become more and more necessary.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
sureaboutthis 8y ago
A few years ago, I took a car trip out west and went through three or four of them. I was astounded at the level of knowledge, friendliness and helpfulness of every park ranger I met and every service provided at the parks. Side note: at a lookout at the very top of the Rocky Mountains, I was alone and staring out between two peaks when a ranger came up and started chatting with me and answered a few questions. After several minutes of that, I thanked her and she mentioned she was actually a volunteer. She and her husband did this work for fun for a month or so but, far more interesting, it turns out she lives less than a mile from my house back home! By the way, if you are 60+, the parks are free but you must apply for a Parks Service card at any park entrance. The regular price, if I recall, is still only $10 or so.
scythe 8y ago
The busy ones have a fee. From the site (linked downthread): >Out of the 418 units in the National Park Service (NPS), 115 parks charge an entrance fee. The majority of national parks are free! However, the most famous ones -- Yosemite, Yellowstone, Death Valley, Great Smoky, etc -- have an entrance fee.

tcdent 8y ago

I live near Joshua Tree National Park. We pull upwards of 3 million visitors each year and growing. Expecting this weekend will be extremely busy around town.

newman8r 8y ago
I've got a 5 acre parcel in that area as well, wonder valley. I've talked to at least one other HN user who lives out there too. Perfect time of year to be out there, it's like beach weather.
- Rebelgecko 8y ago
  I would not have guessed that there would be any HN users in Wonder Valley. Do you have any sort of structure on the property, or just a lot? What (if anything) do you do for water/electricity?
  - newman8r 8y ago
    I brought my trailer out there but it was vandalized. There's a small existing cement foundation where a building used to be (which is common for the parcels out there). I started basic work on some outbuildings using dry stone masonry (there's a rocky outcropping on about half of the property so there's an unlimited supply of big rocks) I started working on a well, but for water I mostly filled up my tanks at the Joshua Tree visitors center once a week (the water is free for the public). For power, I used a generator and a battery bank. I purchased some solar panels, but I decided not to put them in until I build a real cabin. For internet, I used cellular. Since there's a 100 foot outcropping on the property, I was able to get a great signal by setting that up on top of the hill.
desas 8y ago
I live near the Peak District National Park in the UK. It pulls 13 million people per year and is 550 square miles, which is much much smaller than Joshua Tree National Park

iscrewyou 8y ago

This is why the fee is charged: https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/fees-at-work.htm https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/fees-at-work.htm Ones near urban areas are usually busy. I’ve lived close to one and there’s usually a line on the weekend in the middle of the day to enter the park. It gets especially worse during holidays or when school is out during the summer. So I always make it a point to go during weekdays when school is in session.

benatkin 8y ago
That isn't why. That's why they say that it's charged. The government has other ways of collecting money and there are other ways they could prevent overtourism. I don't know all the reasons why it is the way it is, but people working for the NPS are the last people I'd trust to give a good answer on it.
- ghaff 8y ago
  Come on. If you're going to a national park you're probably driving a significant distance, often flying, etc. The $20 or so admission fee is not remotely keeping anyone who would otherwise go to a national park from doing so. Maybe there's some weird corner case somewhere but it's reasonable to assume it's vanishingly rare. ADDED: And to be clear, I'm also strongly opposed to raising prices as a way to use market forces to depress use.
- dnautics 8y ago
  If you prevent overtourism with quotas you will screw the underprivileged in other ways, e.g. by making it impossible for them to expend the time and effort to make it in under the quota.
irrational 8y ago
Even ones nowhere near an urban area, like Yellowstone, are extremely busy.

davidw 8y ago

A lot of them are. OTOH, we have a lot of other public lands that are free to use. This one's right near where I live, and clocks in at 7,300 square km. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deschutes_National_Forest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deschutes_National_Forest

teej 8y ago

America's national parks got 331 million visits last year. The most popular parks get very busy.

npsbackcountry 8y ago

Some are that busy, indeed. My base of operations takes >20 million visitors annually. The glitterati Parks like Yosemite, Yellowstone, or Zion are overrun. It’s a difficult situation compounded by lack of budget for staff and upkeep.

outworlder 8y ago
Went to Yosemite two weeks ago. The area around the visitor center is indeed packed full. Looked more like a city downtown, rather than a park. The rest of the park though? Crossed the park via the Tioga Pass to reach Mammoth Lakes (which is outside of the park). There was very low traffic and a handful of people. I feel that most people are concentrated in a few areas only, which should help. But the park is MASSIVE (takes almost 3h across by car). The entrance fee is a bargain considering how beautiful it is, and the sheer size of the area that has to be maintained and patrolled.
- npsbackcountry 8y ago
  Grand Canyon of the Tuolumne for victory. I dont live or work in CA, but have hiked it and it’s known amongst backcountry employees to be the “secret,” best route in the park. Only mention it here because the sheer Kantian sublime will keep the hordes out ;)
  - chabes 8y ago
    Careful of the rattlesnakes back there. I almost got bit once when I was deep in the backcountry, and I would NOT want to be forced to find out what it takes to endure that situation
- saltcured 8y ago
  To be fair, Tuolumne and the Tioga Road are already in their off-season where no overnight parking or camping is allowed and all services are closed. Anyone up there has to be on a day trip, unless they have a wilderness permit and either packed in a long distance or had someone drop them at a trailhead up there. During the summer months, Tioga Road can be clogged like an amusement park too. Also, while there is an entrance fee that applies per vehicle and gives you access for 7 days, there is also an NPS annual pass which costs about $100 and lets you enter every National Park and National Monument. So, you never have to pay more than approximately three Yosemite entrance fees in a single year, no matter how often you visit. When I was a kid, we also had a "Golden Eagle" pass which combined the NPS annual pass with similar unlimited access to all California State Parks. I haven't seen that option in a long time though.

ip26 8y ago

Worth noting in many cases the fee applies only to entering by vehicle, not bike or foot, and indeed many of the fees go towards accommodations for vehicles- roads, parking lots, traffic management, etc.

timtyrrell 8y ago

It is $80 a year to get an annual pass, not too bad if you visit a few.

KingPrad 8y ago

I'm American and have mixed feelings on this. National Parks can definitely be massive operations during the summer months so I understand charging a fee. But it also removes this public good from the poor and I think that's wrong. Maybe the park system provides free/cheap passes via welfare programs. I'm more concerned that many state parks charge up to $15/day usage fee. A fee just to enter and hike or play around a lake. I think that's very wrong. Simple fun in the outdoors ought to cheap recreation option - the cost to get there and whatever food you want to bring. It is gross that we fund these great places through taxes, then only those you can easily pay again can use them.

glitcher 8y ago
Similarly, it just feels plain wrong whenever there is a government shutdown and huge national parks are "closed". I'm sure there are good arguments on both side of this, but to me the idea that you can close a large expanse of wilderness seems absurd.
- skissane 8y ago
  > it just feels plain wrong whenever there is a government shutdown I don't know why Americans put up with that silly government shutdown nonsense. In most countries that never happens. I think the solution is really simple – all a President has to do is call Congress' bluff and order the government to stay open, and to apply the previous budget on a pro rata basis. "But that's illegal!", people say. Well, it would violate the Antideficiency Act. But, the Antideficiency Act is rather toothless. Nobody has ever been prosecuted for violating it, and the President can always use prosecutorial discretion and the power of pardon to prevent any such prosecutions. Would the Supreme Court order the government to close? Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, the Supreme Court is very unpredictable. But, assuming it doesn't, Congress can either accept it, or impeach and remove the President. Given removal of a President requires a two-thirds vote of the Senate, it probably wouldn't happen.
  - Godel_unicode 8y ago
    We don't do monarchy in the United States. We believe in checks and balances, and limited power. Edit: also, the power of the purse is a matter of constitutional law, not the antideficiency act. The supreme court would absolutely order the government to close. No Federal employee would follow executive orders to violate congressional authority.

gumby 8y ago

The parks are heavily curated and managed — think of them as open air museums. Personally I don’t like visiting national parks because of this - I prefer the pretty unregulated wilderness and BLM land. But many people aren’t prepared for the wild (and it really is wild; there’s nothing like it in the UK, more like the Aussie bush in level of isolation) so these parks are great to get people exposed to the outdoors. Parks constitute a tiny percentage of public open land. And for the ones I’ve visited really have been built around special places (Grand Canyon, Yosemite, Larsen, etc) and why not? If it’s someone’s only exposure to nature why not make it the best. And I won’t have to see them when I’m in the desolation wilderness.

robbyking 8y ago
You can definitely get off the beaten path in National Parks, it's just that very few people choose to.
davb 8y ago
> The parks are heavily curated and managed — think of them as open air museums. Most museums in the UK are free to visit too. They generally have donation boxes which is a great way to let those who can afford to do so support the museum. And those who can't are not excluded.
- throwaway427 8y ago
  The Smithsonian in DC is also free to visit. We aren't really talking about the same thing here. Many National Parks are massive properties with extensive ecological concerns and staff overhead. But they aren't even close to the sole extent of publicly owned land, that's where the BLM comes in. And there are the national grasslands and the forest service lands as well. We haven't even touched on state owned public lands or conservancy lands.
  - njarboe 8y ago
    The amount of land set aside for wilderness and parks in the US is amazing. More than all cities and towns (urban) combined. This webpage[1] as a lot of cool maps of US land use. [1]https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-land-use/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-land-use/

nickpp 8y ago

What I don't understand is why they are so cheap, especially in places like California where certain weekends are so crowded that trails get quota and lottery allocations. Surely a bidding system would lead to a better allocation of those (public) resources, finance the conservation and management costs and avoid the dreaded tragedy of commons...

Marazan 8y ago
And then poor people couldn't afford to go.
- nickpp 8y ago
  Why? The less wanted parks or time slots could bid even under current costs.
  - joshuamcginnis 8y ago
    There is only one Yosemite.
    - nickpp 8y ago
      Indeed. And it certainly can't fit all 8 billion of us during the same 4th of July weekend.
      - CobrastanJorji 8y ago
        Right. But your proposal maximizes profit but minimizes access for the poor. It's a good choice for a business, but profit isn't really the goal of national parks.
        nickpp 8y ago
        No, my proposal just solves the access allocation problem using the only mechanism we known for finding out the actual value of things: free markets. Profit is just a nice side benefit which you can use any way you like: to build more parks, improve access to existing ones or simply subsidies access for the poor during less requested periods.

garysahota93 8y ago

Many times, they are super busy, but the cost of admission really goes towards paying the Park Rangers and for overall upkeep of the park. Government funding decreases year over year, so these admissions become more and more necessary.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

sureaboutthis 8y ago

A few years ago, I took a car trip out west and went through three or four of them. I was astounded at the level of knowledge, friendliness and helpfulness of every park ranger I met and every service provided at the parks. Side note: at a lookout at the very top of the Rocky Mountains, I was alone and staring out between two peaks when a ranger came up and started chatting with me and answered a few questions. After several minutes of that, I thanked her and she mentioned she was actually a volunteer. She and her husband did this work for fun for a month or so but, far more interesting, it turns out she lives less than a mile from my house back home! By the way, if you are 60+, the parks are free but you must apply for a Parks Service card at any park entrance. The regular price, if I recall, is still only $10 or so.

scythe 8y ago

The busy ones have a fee. From the site (linked downthread): >Out of the 418 units in the National Park Service (NPS), 115 parks charge an entrance fee. The majority of national parks are free! However, the most famous ones -- Yosemite, Yellowstone, Death Valley, Great Smoky, etc -- have an entrance fee.