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It is of note in this case that "misuse" is perfectly arbitrary. The RescueTime app did use location, only locally on the device, to enrich the information prov

by laohu 8y ago

It is of note in this case that "misuse" is perfectly arbitrary. The RescueTime app did use location, only locally on the device, to enrich the information provided to users. It also happened to capture screen time, obviously important to the app. Be clear here: Apple has not said this aspect is misuse. Screen time recording is blessed by Apple. There are at least three other apps active in the app store that do the same thing, and advertise themselves as screen time management tools. It cannot be argued that location is the primary reason the api is used for any of these, but it can be argued that it is an important aspect. Just like RescueTime claims. Apple's issue here is there is no consistency for "misuse" where misuse is defined as location being secondary or primary to the API use. That is what their review board is claiming, and it so far used in a capricious and anti-competitive fashion. Note: this is Mark from RescueTime.

ThePhysicist 8y ago
Did you do any other kind of data collection that Apple might have had issues with? Do they get a copy if your source code when reviewing the app? Also, can you explain a bit more why you need to capture location information for measuring the users screen time? The two things seem pretty unrelated to me (but I’m not an user of the app either).
- laohu 8y ago
  No other data issue has been cited... There is no other data available on iOS to use for productivity tracking anyway. The app is best used as an out-of-band console / intervention / notification center, however getting a "total screen time across all devices" metric is a much desired feature for users. As the APIs stand today, the only way the phone screen pick up event can be captured, is if the persistent location capability is in place. Of course, a users location is very informative for work goals and what a users hopes might be for screen time, so it also matters as a data point (think, office vs transit). So a number of apps have used both together, for the purpose of tackling digital wellness. The decision as to which is "primary" has been applied without consistency by the reviewers.
  - ThePhysicist 8y ago
    So is Apple mostly worried about the extra battery consumption needed for this feature?
meej 8y ago
You guys may find this talk of interest: https://academy.realm.io/posts/altconf-josh-michaels-deprecated-incorporated/ https://academy.realm.io/posts/altconf-josh-michaels-depreca... Description at the link: "It’s every Apple developers worst nightmare. Your app is doing well, business is going fine, then all of a sudden BAM! Something changes in Apple’s world and suddenly everything is at risk. Sometimes it’s as simple as Apple deprecating an API you depend on. Other times it’s a policy matter - a change in rules that has Apple requesting that you change or remove your app from the store. Sometimes it is a bug in the platform which you have to hack a creative workaround for. No matter what the specifics, developers should be prepared to handle that day when Apple pulls the rug out. After more than six years of working on apps in Apple’s land I’ve had more than my fair share of these experiences. In this talk I will go through four different examples from multiple developers covering the most common situations in which changes in Apple land can disrupt your app. Through these stories I will offer best practices for handling these difficult situations from how to interact with Apple to how to deal with the gripping frustration that can come along with these challenges. The goal of this talk is to better prepare attendees for that inevitable day when something goes wrong and in doing so help reduce the ambient anxiety many developers feel about the possibility of such problems."
mcfedr 8y ago
Hi, I'm the lead developer of another app in the same space, we've also been blocked from updating our app for several months now. Interesting to see that this is happening to the the whole community of apps that compete with apples own screen time. The worst answer we've had to our use of the APIs has been "the API might change in the future and your app might stop working" - about the location API
- js4ever 8y ago
  This remember me when my free music app was kicked out of the store with 17 other free & legal music apps ... the exact same day when Apple music was published... This is why I hate so much Apple and all their products now.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    What reason did Apple provide when they pulled your app?
    - js4ever 8y ago
      If my memory is correct it was something like "low quality apps are not allowed on the appstore" ... Even if I didn't submitted an update since months and everything was running smoothly with 200k happy monthly users and very high review ratings...
peteretep 8y ago
Respectfully, your arguments are weak, and you're playing the crowd with bluster rather than laying out compelling arguments. I've been a RescueTime user before, and it's a real shame it's not allowed on iOS, but again, your arguments here are not strong at all. > It also happened to capture screen time, obviously important to the app. Be clear here: Apple has not said this aspect is misuse. In your article, you link directly to a clause: "Your app is misusing background location for purposes other than location-related features and functionality." It would seem Apple are directly telling you that this aspect is misuse, on account of they call it that, and the actual disagreement here is "We do not ... agree that this is “misusing” the method". Apple's position seems clear. > Screen time recording is blessed by Apple What's your evidence for this? That they provide it themselves? There are plenty of things that Apple bless for themselves to do via apps, and not for 3rd parties to do. Is your evidence that the rules aren't being applied consistently? That's not evidence, that's an appeal to fairness. > Apple's issue here is there is no consistency for "misuse" where misuse is defined as location being secondary or primary to the API use. This seems an odd sentence to say just after "Apple has not said this aspect is misuse". You argument boils down to "everyone else is doing it so why can't we". A reply to your comment shows that Apple appears to be cracking down in general, and as a well-known brand, it shouldn't be that surprising that you're getting targeted first.
- laohu 8y ago
  "Your app is misusing background location for purposes other than location-related features and functionality." > It would seem Apple are directly telling you that this aspect is misuse, on account of they call it that, and the actual disagreement here is "We do not ... agree that this is “misusing” the method". Apple's position seems clear. The problem for is more that it's open and inconsistent interpretation, in their own words, when they decide that. Their position is "clear" with the respect to the other apps in our space that they banned, and then allowed back in. So "clear" to one entity combined (-1) * "clear" to another has the sum of zero clarity. > What's your evidence for this? That they provide it themselves? There are plenty of things that Apple bless for themselves to do via apps, and not for 3rd parties to do. Is your evidence that the rules aren't being applied consistently? That's not evidence, that's an appeal to fairness. This evidence is not shareable here for others privacy and respect. It is the combination of content of a number of conversations between app developers we communicate with, and with Apple's conversations with all of us. > This seems an odd sentence to say just after "Apple has not said this aspect is misuse". This is admittedly a poor and opaque hint at the above note. We haven't been targeted first, we are in the pool of targets, and some Apple has let back in. These apps list screen time management as their primary raison-d'etre.
jen20 8y ago
Your “disclaimer” note would be _much_ better positioned at the top of your post rather than the bottom...

by laohu 8y ago

ThePhysicist 8y ago

Did you do any other kind of data collection that Apple might have had issues with? Do they get a copy if your source code when reviewing the app? Also, can you explain a bit more why you need to capture location information for measuring the users screen time? The two things seem pretty unrelated to me (but I’m not an user of the app either).

laohu 8y ago
No other data issue has been cited... There is no other data available on iOS to use for productivity tracking anyway. The app is best used as an out-of-band console / intervention / notification center, however getting a "total screen time across all devices" metric is a much desired feature for users. As the APIs stand today, the only way the phone screen pick up event can be captured, is if the persistent location capability is in place. Of course, a users location is very informative for work goals and what a users hopes might be for screen time, so it also matters as a data point (think, office vs transit). So a number of apps have used both together, for the purpose of tackling digital wellness. The decision as to which is "primary" has been applied without consistency by the reviewers.
- ThePhysicist 8y ago
  So is Apple mostly worried about the extra battery consumption needed for this feature?

meej 8y ago

You guys may find this talk of interest: https://academy.realm.io/posts/altconf-josh-michaels-deprecated-incorporated/ https://academy.realm.io/posts/altconf-josh-michaels-depreca... Description at the link: "It’s every Apple developers worst nightmare. Your app is doing well, business is going fine, then all of a sudden BAM! Something changes in Apple’s world and suddenly everything is at risk. Sometimes it’s as simple as Apple deprecating an API you depend on. Other times it’s a policy matter - a change in rules that has Apple requesting that you change or remove your app from the store. Sometimes it is a bug in the platform which you have to hack a creative workaround for. No matter what the specifics, developers should be prepared to handle that day when Apple pulls the rug out. After more than six years of working on apps in Apple’s land I’ve had more than my fair share of these experiences. In this talk I will go through four different examples from multiple developers covering the most common situations in which changes in Apple land can disrupt your app. Through these stories I will offer best practices for handling these difficult situations from how to interact with Apple to how to deal with the gripping frustration that can come along with these challenges. The goal of this talk is to better prepare attendees for that inevitable day when something goes wrong and in doing so help reduce the ambient anxiety many developers feel about the possibility of such problems."

mcfedr 8y ago

Hi, I'm the lead developer of another app in the same space, we've also been blocked from updating our app for several months now. Interesting to see that this is happening to the the whole community of apps that compete with apples own screen time. The worst answer we've had to our use of the APIs has been "the API might change in the future and your app might stop working" - about the location API

js4ever 8y ago
This remember me when my free music app was kicked out of the store with 17 other free & legal music apps ... the exact same day when Apple music was published... This is why I hate so much Apple and all their products now.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  What reason did Apple provide when they pulled your app?
  - js4ever 8y ago
    If my memory is correct it was something like "low quality apps are not allowed on the appstore" ... Even if I didn't submitted an update since months and everything was running smoothly with 200k happy monthly users and very high review ratings...

peteretep 8y ago

Respectfully, your arguments are weak, and you're playing the crowd with bluster rather than laying out compelling arguments. I've been a RescueTime user before, and it's a real shame it's not allowed on iOS, but again, your arguments here are not strong at all. > It also happened to capture screen time, obviously important to the app. Be clear here: Apple has not said this aspect is misuse. In your article, you link directly to a clause: "Your app is misusing background location for purposes other than location-related features and functionality." It would seem Apple are directly telling you that this aspect is misuse, on account of they call it that, and the actual disagreement here is "We do not ... agree that this is “misusing” the method". Apple's position seems clear. > Screen time recording is blessed by Apple What's your evidence for this? That they provide it themselves? There are plenty of things that Apple bless for themselves to do via apps, and not for 3rd parties to do. Is your evidence that the rules aren't being applied consistently? That's not evidence, that's an appeal to fairness. > Apple's issue here is there is no consistency for "misuse" where misuse is defined as location being secondary or primary to the API use. This seems an odd sentence to say just after "Apple has not said this aspect is misuse". You argument boils down to "everyone else is doing it so why can't we". A reply to your comment shows that Apple appears to be cracking down in general, and as a well-known brand, it shouldn't be that surprising that you're getting targeted first.

laohu 8y ago
"Your app is misusing background location for purposes other than location-related features and functionality." > It would seem Apple are directly telling you that this aspect is misuse, on account of they call it that, and the actual disagreement here is "We do not ... agree that this is “misusing” the method". Apple's position seems clear. The problem for is more that it's open and inconsistent interpretation, in their own words, when they decide that. Their position is "clear" with the respect to the other apps in our space that they banned, and then allowed back in. So "clear" to one entity combined (-1) * "clear" to another has the sum of zero clarity. > What's your evidence for this? That they provide it themselves? There are plenty of things that Apple bless for themselves to do via apps, and not for 3rd parties to do. Is your evidence that the rules aren't being applied consistently? That's not evidence, that's an appeal to fairness. This evidence is not shareable here for others privacy and respect. It is the combination of content of a number of conversations between app developers we communicate with, and with Apple's conversations with all of us. > This seems an odd sentence to say just after "Apple has not said this aspect is misuse". This is admittedly a poor and opaque hint at the above note. We haven't been targeted first, we are in the pool of targets, and some Apple has let back in. These apps list screen time management as their primary raison-d'etre.

jen20 8y ago

Your “disclaimer” note would be _much_ better positioned at the top of your post rather than the bottom...