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Does Java need a "Linux moment"?

20 points by Garbage 16y ago

lygaret 16y ago
The problem, in my opinion, is that unlike Linux, recreating the important parts of Java as open source wouldn't be fun. The issue isn't the VM, or the compilers or anything like that (which exist and _are_ open source) or the standard libraries (which IIRC are also open source as much as is possible), it's the patent portfolio and the JCK and JCP. If someone wants to fork Java, they'll have to replace the JCK to get any sort of traction. Hackers enjoy hacking on software, not fixing compatibility test suites and setting up standards bodies. Java's dead, and it's because it's gotten to the point where it really, really needs a large player behind it, paying for lawyers and politicians (more lawyers).
eitland 16y ago
We already have decent implementations of javascript, python and ruby running on all three major platforms. It's not hard to guess that we'll see a rapid decline in interest for creating and maintaining Java libraries now that Java is owned by someone who totally don't get the Java community.
WildUtah 16y ago
That's what Apache created in the Harmony project. And Oracle is suing Google over that very same thing. Oracle claims that they own the copyright on Java API, including clean-room reimplementations of the Java API. It's a novel legal theory that didn't work for IBM or AT&T so we'll have to wait and see what happens. Oracle also has patents that pretty much prohibit anyone from writing any kind of JIT VM. That's just one more pathology of a system that allows software patents at all. It's literally illegal today to write any kind of software in the USA because of the breathtaking quantity of basic techniques patented long after their first use by our broken patent office. Oracle is just the one seeking to enforce that prohibition today.
- nkassis 16y ago
  "Oracle also has patents that pretty much prohibit anyone from writing any kind of JIT VM" That's the biggest issue I see with this suit, so they want to own the language and syntax, whatever. But if I have a language X lets call it D# and I want to build a vm for it, I can't because of those patents? It's not like VMs and JIT are new, I'm sure someone was doing it before Sun.
rabble 16y ago
How the hell does this end up on the front page of HN? There are several free and open implementations of java and the JVM, the problem in this case is not copyright put patents. Has somebody been gaming HN to get insubstantial and uninformed pithy blog posts like this on the front page?
- goodside 16y ago
  I meant to upvote you. Touchscreen syndrome. Somebody please upvote the parent and downvote me. Thanks.
angusgr 16y ago
WildUtah made the main point I had (that Apache Harmony represents this very concept), but I also can't help but address the concept of a "Linux moment" GNU is the real project to talk about here. It was started in the mid 1980s in response to proprietary Unix tools. It was created for the explicit purpose of freeing users from AT&T's licensing restrictions. Linux was started in 1991 as a side project, not from any ideological reason and not to be "big and professional like gnu"[1]. Although the source was always available, it was not until a year later that it was GPL licensed and became what RMS would call "free software". Not trying to be a RMS fanboi here, obviously both pieces of software have evolved into something very different in the past 19+ years. However, the root "moment" was the reason for GNU, not for Linux. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Linux http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Linux
- nailer 16y ago
  I agree with what you're saying, but the term 'Linux' is commonly used as a shorthand for GNU, X, GNOME, the Linux kernel and more. Yes, people should credit GNU, not 'Linux' for replacing Unix. But those of us that understand the difference know the author is talking about GNU, and those that don't think Linux is GNU anyway.
  - angusgr 16y ago
    but the term 'Linux' is commonly used as a shorthand for GNU, X, GNOME, the Linux kernel and more. I know, I use that shorthand myself. But only one of the components you mention (GNU) was created for the explicit reason that the article describes. those of us that understand the difference know the author is talking about GNU I'm not sure even the author actually realises he was talking about GNU. The "Linux or GNU/Linux (sorry Richard Stallman)" quote gave me the impression that he has heard of RMS's pedantry about the term GNU/Linux, but he doesn't understand why RMS is pedantic about it, or any of the other relevant history. and those that don't think Linux is GNU anyway. ... which would seem to justify the comment, in itself. :) BTW, _Why_ does this have more upvotes than WildUtah's comment?!? Their comment is far more to the point than my one.
rexyo 16y ago
Does the world need its Linux moment? The USPTO is a real mess for anybody believing in open source technologies, everybody knows that.. Java cant have a bright future within Ellison's hands, who is only trying to beat Google by buying up revenue streams: Market cap Oracle: $144.28 Billion Market cap Google: $196.24 Billion There is also news that Oracle might be invloved in large scale fraud: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703578104575397573983263294.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870357810457539... Keep your head up Java, you'll never walk alone..
st3fan 16y ago
Yeah Miguel de Icaza had that moment six years ago.

20 points by Garbage 16y ago

The problem, in my opinion, is that unlike Linux, recreating the important parts of Java as open source wouldn't be fun. The issue isn't the VM, or the compilers or anything like that (which exist and _are_ open source) or the standard libraries (which IIRC are also open source as much as is possible), it's the patent portfolio and the JCK and JCP. If someone wants to fork Java, they'll have to replace the JCK to get any sort of traction. Hackers enjoy hacking on software, not fixing compatibility test suites and setting up standards bodies. Java's dead, and it's because it's gotten to the point where it really, really needs a large player behind it, paying for lawyers and politicians (more lawyers).

eitland 16y ago

We already have decent implementations of javascript, python and ruby running on all three major platforms. It's not hard to guess that we'll see a rapid decline in interest for creating and maintaining Java libraries now that Java is owned by someone who totally don't get the Java community.

WildUtah 16y ago

That's what Apache created in the Harmony project. And Oracle is suing Google over that very same thing. Oracle claims that they own the copyright on Java API, including clean-room reimplementations of the Java API. It's a novel legal theory that didn't work for IBM or AT&T so we'll have to wait and see what happens. Oracle also has patents that pretty much prohibit anyone from writing any kind of JIT VM. That's just one more pathology of a system that allows software patents at all. It's literally illegal today to write any kind of software in the USA because of the breathtaking quantity of basic techniques patented long after their first use by our broken patent office. Oracle is just the one seeking to enforce that prohibition today.

nkassis 16y ago
"Oracle also has patents that pretty much prohibit anyone from writing any kind of JIT VM" That's the biggest issue I see with this suit, so they want to own the language and syntax, whatever. But if I have a language X lets call it D# and I want to build a vm for it, I can't because of those patents? It's not like VMs and JIT are new, I'm sure someone was doing it before Sun.

rabble 16y ago

How the hell does this end up on the front page of HN? There are several free and open implementations of java and the JVM, the problem in this case is not copyright put patents. Has somebody been gaming HN to get insubstantial and uninformed pithy blog posts like this on the front page?

goodside 16y ago
I meant to upvote you. Touchscreen syndrome. Somebody please upvote the parent and downvote me. Thanks.

angusgr 16y ago

WildUtah made the main point I had (that Apache Harmony represents this very concept), but I also can't help but address the concept of a "Linux moment" GNU is the real project to talk about here. It was started in the mid 1980s in response to proprietary Unix tools. It was created for the explicit purpose of freeing users from AT&T's licensing restrictions. Linux was started in 1991 as a side project, not from any ideological reason and not to be "big and professional like gnu"[1]. Although the source was always available, it was not until a year later that it was GPL licensed and became what RMS would call "free software". Not trying to be a RMS fanboi here, obviously both pieces of software have evolved into something very different in the past 19+ years. However, the root "moment" was the reason for GNU, not for Linux. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Linux http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Linux

nailer 16y ago
I agree with what you're saying, but the term 'Linux' is commonly used as a shorthand for GNU, X, GNOME, the Linux kernel and more. Yes, people should credit GNU, not 'Linux' for replacing Unix. But those of us that understand the difference know the author is talking about GNU, and those that don't think Linux is GNU anyway.
- angusgr 16y ago
  but the term 'Linux' is commonly used as a shorthand for GNU, X, GNOME, the Linux kernel and more. I know, I use that shorthand myself. But only one of the components you mention (GNU) was created for the explicit reason that the article describes. those of us that understand the difference know the author is talking about GNU I'm not sure even the author actually realises he was talking about GNU. The "Linux or GNU/Linux (sorry Richard Stallman)" quote gave me the impression that he has heard of RMS's pedantry about the term GNU/Linux, but he doesn't understand why RMS is pedantic about it, or any of the other relevant history. and those that don't think Linux is GNU anyway. ... which would seem to justify the comment, in itself. :) BTW, _Why_ does this have more upvotes than WildUtah's comment?!? Their comment is far more to the point than my one.

rexyo 16y ago

Does the world need its Linux moment? The USPTO is a real mess for anybody believing in open source technologies, everybody knows that.. Java cant have a bright future within Ellison's hands, who is only trying to beat Google by buying up revenue streams: Market cap Oracle: $144.28 Billion Market cap Google: $196.24 Billion There is also news that Oracle might be invloved in large scale fraud: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703578104575397573983263294.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870357810457539... Keep your head up Java, you'll never walk alone..

st3fan 16y ago

Yeah Miguel de Icaza had that moment six years ago.