3 ms·

Maybe I misread something... But it sounds like they upgraded the tires, and the track mode at the same time, then ran 2 seconds faster. How do we know the trac

Maybe I misread something... But it sounds like they upgraded the tires, and the track mode at the same time, then ran 2 seconds faster. How do we know the track mode upgrades made the car faster, and not just the tires. Tires make a HUGE difference. This is a bad test, IMO.

newnewpdro 8y ago
Agreed, the times are rendered uncomparable since they changed the tires - increasing both size and stickiness! It's bogus.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  To you, it's bogus. To a consumer, they're getting Ferrari performance for hundreds of thousands of dollars less by slapping a different set of tires on. It's marketing, and it's done well. Just another lever pulled to stoke demand for the (higher margin) Performance version, and it was done with a software upgrade.
  - newnewpdro 8y ago
    > and it was done with a software upgrade What was done with a software upgrade? We have zero meaningful measurement of what the software upgrade alone achieved because they changed so much in addition to it. The time improvement is on the order of what would be expected when adding tire width and softness.
  - rurban 8y ago
    It's mostly incredible performance of the time to market. The improvements made it into the consumer version within two weeks, not two years.
- strange_quark 8y ago
  If you read the original article, they also swapped out the brake pads for Brembo brakes and pre-cooled both the motors and battery pack before doing the lap. Not really a 1:1 comparison.
erikpukinskis 8y ago
> How do we know the track mode upgrades made the car faster Just the testament of the driver.
zone411 8y ago
Not only did they upgrade the original tires to track-oriented, barely street legal tires but also they upgraded to track-oriented brakes. Both of these have very large effects on track times. Adjusting handling characteristics to the preferences of the same driver who then sets the lap times is somewhat of a cheat too. The link to is a blog spam article that makes is it appear as if the Tesla was faster than a current Ferrari model but in reality, it was an 8-year old model. I don't see a lap time for the Ferrari 488 but the Lamborghini Huracan Performante was much faster: 1:18.73 vs 1:21.49 with Randy Probst. The 2018 Nissan GT-R Nismo was also faster. (https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow-springs-streets-of-willow https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow-springs-streets-of-wil...) The biggest problem is not mentioned at all - the Tesla can do only about 4 laps (4-5 estimated here https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa-romeo/giulia/2019/tesla-model-3-vs-jaguar-i-pace-vs-alfa-romeo-giulia/ https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa-romeo/giulia/2019/tesla... but the track tires limit the range further).
- bobbygoodlatte 8y ago
  Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires are fairly commonplace for performance cars and included from the factory on many models. I wouldn't call them "barely street legal"
  - krobertson 8y ago
    They even come stock from the manufacturer on many like the Porsche 911.
    - oppositelock 8y ago
      My fancy Ford Focus came with the PS Cup 2's from the factory. You don't need to buy a Porsche to get barely street legal tires!
  - wolrah 8y ago
    Those things are not mutually exclusive. PSC2s are optional on a lot of high performance vehicles and in many cases standard with the top performance package. They are also pretty much as close to a slick tire as you can get without compromising all wet performance. There are tires that are more "barely legal" but there aren't many. The reason they're so widely offered on performance cars is that they are basically cheater tires. They're street legal and grip like hell, but they also cost a lot, make a lot of noise, wear incredibly quickly, and can't be used in cold temperatures. I'm not aware of a single car sold with them as standard equipment which doesn't also offer a less insane tire as an add-on. Basically they're used so automakers can get good numbers, no one in their right mind actually daily drives these tires. The PS4S used in the original test is generally regarded as one of the best tires for a daily driven performance car.
tynpeddler 8y ago
From this article https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-model-3-performance-track-mode-release-version-review/ https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-mod..., linked elsewhere in the thread, it seems as if the jaguar was using track tires while the Tesla came in with standard equipment the first time. Upgrading the Tesla's brakes and tires seems like it was done to bring it into line with what other cars were using.

newnewpdro 8y ago

Agreed, the times are rendered uncomparable since they changed the tires - increasing both size and stickiness! It's bogus.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
To you, it's bogus. To a consumer, they're getting Ferrari performance for hundreds of thousands of dollars less by slapping a different set of tires on. It's marketing, and it's done well. Just another lever pulled to stoke demand for the (higher margin) Performance version, and it was done with a software upgrade.
- newnewpdro 8y ago
  > and it was done with a software upgrade What was done with a software upgrade? We have zero meaningful measurement of what the software upgrade alone achieved because they changed so much in addition to it. The time improvement is on the order of what would be expected when adding tire width and softness.
- rurban 8y ago
  It's mostly incredible performance of the time to market. The improvements made it into the consumer version within two weeks, not two years.
strange_quark 8y ago
If you read the original article, they also swapped out the brake pads for Brembo brakes and pre-cooled both the motors and battery pack before doing the lap. Not really a 1:1 comparison.

erikpukinskis 8y ago

> How do we know the track mode upgrades made the car faster Just the testament of the driver.

zone411 8y ago

Not only did they upgrade the original tires to track-oriented, barely street legal tires but also they upgraded to track-oriented brakes. Both of these have very large effects on track times. Adjusting handling characteristics to the preferences of the same driver who then sets the lap times is somewhat of a cheat too. The link to is a blog spam article that makes is it appear as if the Tesla was faster than a current Ferrari model but in reality, it was an 8-year old model. I don't see a lap time for the Ferrari 488 but the Lamborghini Huracan Performante was much faster: 1:18.73 vs 1:21.49 with Randy Probst. The 2018 Nissan GT-R Nismo was also faster. (https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow-springs-streets-of-willow https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow-springs-streets-of-wil...) The biggest problem is not mentioned at all - the Tesla can do only about 4 laps (4-5 estimated here https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa-romeo/giulia/2019/tesla-model-3-vs-jaguar-i-pace-vs-alfa-romeo-giulia/ https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa-romeo/giulia/2019/tesla... but the track tires limit the range further).

bobbygoodlatte 8y ago
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires are fairly commonplace for performance cars and included from the factory on many models. I wouldn't call them "barely street legal"
- krobertson 8y ago
  They even come stock from the manufacturer on many like the Porsche 911.
  - oppositelock 8y ago
    My fancy Ford Focus came with the PS Cup 2's from the factory. You don't need to buy a Porsche to get barely street legal tires!
- wolrah 8y ago
  Those things are not mutually exclusive. PSC2s are optional on a lot of high performance vehicles and in many cases standard with the top performance package. They are also pretty much as close to a slick tire as you can get without compromising all wet performance. There are tires that are more "barely legal" but there aren't many. The reason they're so widely offered on performance cars is that they are basically cheater tires. They're street legal and grip like hell, but they also cost a lot, make a lot of noise, wear incredibly quickly, and can't be used in cold temperatures. I'm not aware of a single car sold with them as standard equipment which doesn't also offer a less insane tire as an add-on. Basically they're used so automakers can get good numbers, no one in their right mind actually daily drives these tires. The PS4S used in the original test is generally regarded as one of the best tires for a daily driven performance car.

tynpeddler 8y ago

From this article https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-model-3-performance-track-mode-release-version-review/ https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-mod..., linked elsewhere in the thread, it seems as if the jaguar was using track tires while the Tesla came in with standard equipment the first time. Upgrading the Tesla's brakes and tires seems like it was done to bring it into line with what other cars were using.