5 ms·

Tesla Model 3 Performance with Track Mode Beats a Ferrari's Record

64 points by evo_9 8y ago

mywittyname 8y ago
Randy Pobst is a badass. It was smart of Telsa to hire him to assist with tuning the Model3. On top of his long racing career, he's had extensive seat time at Streets of Willow in probably every sporty car made over the past decade due to his affiliation with Motor Trend. I'm not sure there's another person on the planet better qualified for the job.
- gregimba 8y ago
  Randy Pobst's car collection is great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8teV5nuEEI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8teV5nuEEI
- davidjnelson 8y ago
  I love his motor trend track reviews. Definitely a badass.
abfan1127 8y ago
I find it interesting they tuned it to the driver's preferences. I wonder how they translate to other driver's preferences. I recall a story about electronic stethoscopes. They didn't have the same artifacts as the mechanical ones, so doctors didn't like it. Designers then added back in the artifacts artificially and had better acceptance. I wonder how much of the Tesla's tuning was in reality a de-tune to match the driver's preferences.
- mywittyname 8y ago
  They tuned it to the preference of a professional driver, who has also driven probably every sporty car made in the past decade on that track. So it's not like his preferences are arbitrary, they are the result of a huge amount of experience. And clearly his expertise is paying off, as the lap times have improved considerably. I also don't think that preference is the right word to use. Cars have unique characteristics which need to be leveraged differently to maximize performance. A Mustang GT, a 911 Turbo S, and a Audi TT-RS are going to have different handling characteristics by virtue of their design. Since the Model3 is so unique, adapting characteristics of, say, a BMW M3 or an Audi RS3 to a Model3 might not yield the best results. Which is probably what the original engineers did.
- barkingcat 8y ago
  In reality, every car maker does this. Ferrari and Lamborghini has test drivers, usually pro racing car drivers that went into private practice or on commission during their off seasons, and they tune the cars to what the test drivers want. There is no other way to do it. Do you imagine that there's a non-human standard that car makers calibrate to? These cars are meant to be driven by humans, so they tune it to fit one, or a small team of test drivers. There's literally no other way to do it. You take the car out on the road, and get the test driver to talk to the engineers, and they tune it, one small bit at a time, until you get the feel and times that the company is shooting for. The fact that Tesla has started realizing this means the company is maturing.
- jhayward 8y ago
  Race drivers have extremely fine senses for how the car is handling, and what makes it handle. While there is a degree of preference for the most part engineers use professional drivers as more of a highly refined sensor to tell them how to make the car corner faster and accelerate quicker. There's a famous anecdote by Indy champion Rick Mears[1] who could correct the car's 'stagger', the (small) air pressure difference in each tire, just by driving it in precisely the right way to heat up a single tire by a few degrees. TLDR; drivers are precision instrumentation coupled with deep domain knowledge. [1] https://949racing.com/using-a-tire-pyrometer-949-Racing.aspx https://949racing.com/using-a-tire-pyrometer-949-Racing.aspx
olyjohn 8y ago
Maybe I misread something... But it sounds like they upgraded the tires, and the track mode at the same time, then ran 2 seconds faster. How do we know the track mode upgrades made the car faster, and not just the tires. Tires make a HUGE difference. This is a bad test, IMO.
- newnewpdro 8y ago
  Agreed, the times are rendered uncomparable since they changed the tires - increasing both size and stickiness! It's bogus.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    To you, it's bogus. To a consumer, they're getting Ferrari performance for hundreds of thousands of dollars less by slapping a different set of tires on. It's marketing, and it's done well. Just another lever pulled to stoke demand for the (higher margin) Performance version, and it was done with a software upgrade.
    - newnewpdro 8y ago
      > and it was done with a software upgrade What was done with a software upgrade? We have zero meaningful measurement of what the software upgrade alone achieved because they changed so much in addition to it. The time improvement is on the order of what would be expected when adding tire width and softness.
    - rurban 8y ago
      It's mostly incredible performance of the time to market. The improvements made it into the consumer version within two weeks, not two years.
  - strange_quark 8y ago
    If you read the original article, they also swapped out the brake pads for Brembo brakes and pre-cooled both the motors and battery pack before doing the lap. Not really a 1:1 comparison.
caboteria 8y ago
Funny that the headline mentions Ferrari but the article indicates that the benchmark was set down by an Alfa Romeo. I'm not a car guy but aren't Alfa's more like sedans where Ferrari's are full-on sports cars?
- a_tractor 8y ago
  >That time pretty much matches the record of the 2016 Porsche Cayman GT4, and is far quicker than the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio’s 1:22.78 lap. Perhaps more remarkable was that the Model 3 Performance’s new record in the Willow Springs Streets actually ended up beating one of Motor Trend‘s Best Driver’s Car winners in the past — the 2011 Ferrari 458 Italia, which completed the course in 1:22.30.
- cnasc 8y ago
  Alfa makes a full range of vehicles, including performance cars
- lodi 8y ago
  > Perhaps more remarkable was that the Model 3 Performance’s new record in the Willow Springs Streets actually ended up beating one of Motor Trend‘s Best Driver’s Car winners in the past — the 2011 Ferrari 458 Italia, which completed the course in 1:22.30. This is the (last gen) 458: http://www.mansory.com/files/media/mansory/sliders/ferrari-458-addon_0.png http://www.mansory.com/files/media/mansory/sliders/ferrari-4... And this is Ferrari's current mid-engine car, the 488: https://file.kbb.com/kbb/vehicleimage/housenew/480x360/2016/2016-ferrari-488%20gtb-frontside_fe488gtb1601.jpg https://file.kbb.com/kbb/vehicleimage/housenew/480x360/2016/... I'm impressed that the model 3 can hang with those.
- elorant 8y ago
  The Alfa Giulia Quadrifoglio mentioned in the article is a sports sedan, in the likes of BMW M3 and C-Class AMG. It packs a three liter V6 capable of producing 510 bhp, and a top speed of 307km (192 mph).
syassami 8y ago
Better article: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-model-3-performance-track-mode-release-version-review/ https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-mod...
- nabla9 8y ago
  It seems that they use all tricks available, including cooling the engines and batteries. It's impressive nevertheless.
vl 8y ago
Interesting question is of course for how long Model 3 can drive in the track mode. Cars they compare it to can drive on track for the duration of the race/track day. As far as I understand Tesla can drive like this only for few laps?
- jbob2000 8y ago
  Doesn't matter. You think the people who buy Ferraris race them around the track? Most of them sit in garages and get driven to the golf club. But with Tesla, you can now own a car that's "faster than a Ferrari" for less than $100k. Kids aren't dreaming of owning Ferraris now, they're dreaming of owning Teslas.
  - fosk 8y ago
    In other words, kids are having nightmares.
  - tomatotomato37 8y ago
    >But with Tesla, you can now own a car that's "faster than a Ferrari" for less than $100k That's been true for awhile, most Ferraris aren't as fast as their price implies. They're prestige items; if you just want cheap performance you get a corvette
- krobertson 8y ago
  Most gasoline cars will get pretty low on gas with a full day on the track. I track and usually end up topping up some after lunch. Most tracks have gas there, and charge like $6-8/gal. Often with Tesla, year people leave at lunch to go to the nearest supercharger. If tracks added some fast DC chargers, it would be a nice boost.
- londons_explore 8y ago
  The cooling down time is usually only 15 minutes though, especially if you can plug into power and use the active cooling at full blast (would require software modification).
- oppositelock 8y ago
IMTDb 8y ago
I know this may seems a bit far fetched, but I find it a bit dangerous that they are performing an OTA upgrade that, according to the driver, noticeably changes the vehicle behaviour. I do not own a Tesla, so is there a message that tells "Hey ! Your vehicle has been updated, take care".
- ric2b 8y ago
  It's an extra mode, you have to manually change to it.
dagoat 8y ago
I wonder how many straights there are on this track, and what its times are like on the N ring and other larger circuits

64 points by evo_9 8y ago

Randy Pobst is a badass. It was smart of Telsa to hire him to assist with tuning the Model3. On top of his long racing career, he's had extensive seat time at Streets of Willow in probably every sporty car made over the past decade due to his affiliation with Motor Trend. I'm not sure there's another person on the planet better qualified for the job.

gregimba 8y ago
Randy Pobst's car collection is great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8teV5nuEEI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8teV5nuEEI
davidjnelson 8y ago
I love his motor trend track reviews. Definitely a badass.

abfan1127 8y ago

I find it interesting they tuned it to the driver's preferences. I wonder how they translate to other driver's preferences. I recall a story about electronic stethoscopes. They didn't have the same artifacts as the mechanical ones, so doctors didn't like it. Designers then added back in the artifacts artificially and had better acceptance. I wonder how much of the Tesla's tuning was in reality a de-tune to match the driver's preferences.

mywittyname 8y ago
They tuned it to the preference of a professional driver, who has also driven probably every sporty car made in the past decade on that track. So it's not like his preferences are arbitrary, they are the result of a huge amount of experience. And clearly his expertise is paying off, as the lap times have improved considerably. I also don't think that preference is the right word to use. Cars have unique characteristics which need to be leveraged differently to maximize performance. A Mustang GT, a 911 Turbo S, and a Audi TT-RS are going to have different handling characteristics by virtue of their design. Since the Model3 is so unique, adapting characteristics of, say, a BMW M3 or an Audi RS3 to a Model3 might not yield the best results. Which is probably what the original engineers did.
barkingcat 8y ago
In reality, every car maker does this. Ferrari and Lamborghini has test drivers, usually pro racing car drivers that went into private practice or on commission during their off seasons, and they tune the cars to what the test drivers want. There is no other way to do it. Do you imagine that there's a non-human standard that car makers calibrate to? These cars are meant to be driven by humans, so they tune it to fit one, or a small team of test drivers. There's literally no other way to do it. You take the car out on the road, and get the test driver to talk to the engineers, and they tune it, one small bit at a time, until you get the feel and times that the company is shooting for. The fact that Tesla has started realizing this means the company is maturing.
jhayward 8y ago
Race drivers have extremely fine senses for how the car is handling, and what makes it handle. While there is a degree of preference for the most part engineers use professional drivers as more of a highly refined sensor to tell them how to make the car corner faster and accelerate quicker. There's a famous anecdote by Indy champion Rick Mears[1] who could correct the car's 'stagger', the (small) air pressure difference in each tire, just by driving it in precisely the right way to heat up a single tire by a few degrees. TLDR; drivers are precision instrumentation coupled with deep domain knowledge. [1] https://949racing.com/using-a-tire-pyrometer-949-Racing.aspx https://949racing.com/using-a-tire-pyrometer-949-Racing.aspx

olyjohn 8y ago

Maybe I misread something... But it sounds like they upgraded the tires, and the track mode at the same time, then ran 2 seconds faster. How do we know the track mode upgrades made the car faster, and not just the tires. Tires make a HUGE difference. This is a bad test, IMO.

newnewpdro 8y ago
Agreed, the times are rendered uncomparable since they changed the tires - increasing both size and stickiness! It's bogus.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  To you, it's bogus. To a consumer, they're getting Ferrari performance for hundreds of thousands of dollars less by slapping a different set of tires on. It's marketing, and it's done well. Just another lever pulled to stoke demand for the (higher margin) Performance version, and it was done with a software upgrade.
  - newnewpdro 8y ago
    > and it was done with a software upgrade What was done with a software upgrade? We have zero meaningful measurement of what the software upgrade alone achieved because they changed so much in addition to it. The time improvement is on the order of what would be expected when adding tire width and softness.
  - rurban 8y ago
    It's mostly incredible performance of the time to market. The improvements made it into the consumer version within two weeks, not two years.
- strange_quark 8y ago
  If you read the original article, they also swapped out the brake pads for Brembo brakes and pre-cooled both the motors and battery pack before doing the lap. Not really a 1:1 comparison.

caboteria 8y ago

Funny that the headline mentions Ferrari but the article indicates that the benchmark was set down by an Alfa Romeo. I'm not a car guy but aren't Alfa's more like sedans where Ferrari's are full-on sports cars?

a_tractor 8y ago
>That time pretty much matches the record of the 2016 Porsche Cayman GT4, and is far quicker than the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio’s 1:22.78 lap. Perhaps more remarkable was that the Model 3 Performance’s new record in the Willow Springs Streets actually ended up beating one of Motor Trend‘s Best Driver’s Car winners in the past — the 2011 Ferrari 458 Italia, which completed the course in 1:22.30.
cnasc 8y ago
Alfa makes a full range of vehicles, including performance cars
lodi 8y ago
> Perhaps more remarkable was that the Model 3 Performance’s new record in the Willow Springs Streets actually ended up beating one of Motor Trend‘s Best Driver’s Car winners in the past — the 2011 Ferrari 458 Italia, which completed the course in 1:22.30. This is the (last gen) 458: http://www.mansory.com/files/media/mansory/sliders/ferrari-458-addon_0.png http://www.mansory.com/files/media/mansory/sliders/ferrari-4... And this is Ferrari's current mid-engine car, the 488: https://file.kbb.com/kbb/vehicleimage/housenew/480x360/2016/2016-ferrari-488%20gtb-frontside_fe488gtb1601.jpg https://file.kbb.com/kbb/vehicleimage/housenew/480x360/2016/... I'm impressed that the model 3 can hang with those.
elorant 8y ago
The Alfa Giulia Quadrifoglio mentioned in the article is a sports sedan, in the likes of BMW M3 and C-Class AMG. It packs a three liter V6 capable of producing 510 bhp, and a top speed of 307km (192 mph).

syassami 8y ago

Better article: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-model-3-performance-track-mode-release-version-review/ https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-mod...

nabla9 8y ago
It seems that they use all tricks available, including cooling the engines and batteries. It's impressive nevertheless.

vl 8y ago

Interesting question is of course for how long Model 3 can drive in the track mode. Cars they compare it to can drive on track for the duration of the race/track day. As far as I understand Tesla can drive like this only for few laps?

jbob2000 8y ago
Doesn't matter. You think the people who buy Ferraris race them around the track? Most of them sit in garages and get driven to the golf club. But with Tesla, you can now own a car that's "faster than a Ferrari" for less than $100k. Kids aren't dreaming of owning Ferraris now, they're dreaming of owning Teslas.
- fosk 8y ago
  In other words, kids are having nightmares.
- tomatotomato37 8y ago
  >But with Tesla, you can now own a car that's "faster than a Ferrari" for less than $100k That's been true for awhile, most Ferraris aren't as fast as their price implies. They're prestige items; if you just want cheap performance you get a corvette
krobertson 8y ago
Most gasoline cars will get pretty low on gas with a full day on the track. I track and usually end up topping up some after lunch. Most tracks have gas there, and charge like $6-8/gal. Often with Tesla, year people leave at lunch to go to the nearest supercharger. If tracks added some fast DC chargers, it would be a nice boost.
londons_explore 8y ago
The cooling down time is usually only 15 minutes though, especially if you can plug into power and use the active cooling at full blast (would require software modification).
oppositelock 8y ago

IMTDb 8y ago

I know this may seems a bit far fetched, but I find it a bit dangerous that they are performing an OTA upgrade that, according to the driver, noticeably changes the vehicle behaviour. I do not own a Tesla, so is there a message that tells "Hey ! Your vehicle has been updated, take care".

ric2b 8y ago
It's an extra mode, you have to manually change to it.

dagoat 8y ago

I wonder how many straights there are on this track, and what its times are like on the N ring and other larger circuits