7 ms·

It’s fun to ask an anti vaxxer what they would do if they were bitten by a rabid animal. You can watch cognative dissonance kick in.

pwagland 8y ago
They'd die. But there would be no dissonance, since they would just say "no-one gets rabies anymore", so, in their eyes, the argument is a non-sequitur.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
HarryHirsch 8y ago
Anti-vaxxers usually say the benefits outweigh the risks and don't consider herd immunity. When you've just been bitten by a rabid animal the risk-benefit calculation is different, no cognitive dissonance there. You'd also predict that an antivaccionationist hunter has at least his dog vaccinated against rabies, you see rabid foxes and raccoons out there with your own eyes. What you'd really like to do is ask an anti-vaxxer woman who is pregnant or trying to conceive what she thinks about measles, mumps and rubella vaccine, especially rubella.
- lbriner 8y ago
  Plenty of women in the UK turned it down due to unconfirmed (and now debunked) links to autism. It's just what you choose to believe and whether you think the risk of autism and its outcome is worse than the risk of Rubella and its outcome.
tomphoolery 8y ago
How would a vaccine help someone who already has rabies?
- village-idiot 8y ago
  The vaccine is extremely effective if taken between the bite and when symptoms occur. If treated properly and promptly, you have basically a 100% chance of living. As symptoms begin to show up, the chance of survival drops rapidly to 0%.
  - aaron_m04 8y ago
    > As symptoms begin to show up, the chance of survival drops rapidly to 0%. Probably even before symptoms show up, right?
- nostrademons 8y ago
  It takes a while for rabies to travel from the muscle or skin cells of the original bite up into the central nervous system. The virus initially replicates inside muscle cells to avoid detection by the immune system, and only starts traveling up peripheral nerves once a sufficient viral load has been generated. PEP works by massively boosting the patient's immune system (via immunoglobulin) and sensitizing it to the rabies virus (via the vaccine) before the virus can get to the points (the brain) that it's impossible to remove it from. Think of an army retreating in wartime: if you know that the enemy has successfully established a beachhead within your country, the logical next step is to start fortifying cities & chokepoints so that as the enemy advances, they meet unbeatable resistance. That's also why it's critical to get treated ASAP after being bitten: once you show symptoms, it's too late.
TangoTrotFox 8y ago
Not against vaccines, but I think understanding the views of things you disagree with is important. And even more so on this issue because people believe things that even more absurd, but more socially acceptable - and so these ideas persist. The issue some have with vaccines is not generally an outright denial whether or not vaccines work. It's people weight the risk:reward of vaccines differently than others largely supplemented by a large number of correlations to all sorts of nasty things with vaccines. The reason the opposition to vaccines is not a reasonable view is because these are correlations and correlation is not the same as causation. At the same time consider the innumerable number of social views that people hold, and that continue to be published about, that are based absolutely and completely on correlations relying on the absence of evidence against causality, as evidence of causality. But of course proving a negative is impossible -- the burden of proving causality is on the one suggesting such exists. Failing to recognize this is the exact logical fallacy that drives the opposition to vaccines. If all correlations were held to the same standard as those that reflect negatively of vaccines, the world (and science itself) would be in much better shape.
- VikingCoder 8y ago
  > It's people weight the risk:reward of vaccines differently than others And they are wildly misinformed about the risks. And they neglect to consider that the reward of them vaccinating their kid is that MY KID is less likely to get those diseases. That's how herd immunity works. If they were only risking their own kid's life, then it'd be a very different conversation. > largely supplemented by a large number of correlations to all sorts of nasty things with vaccines. Except those are almost all exaggerated or outright lies. To be clear: if I were a selfish individual, I might not get vaccinated. Vaccines have actual risks. But the actual risks are minimal and rare. But I recognize that herd immunity works, and that the risks are minimal and rare.
  - Chris_Chambers 8y ago
    If you’re so scared of the outside world then you ought to never let your child leave the house. Our rights don’t end where your mental illness begins.
rsync 8y ago
"It’s fun to ask an anti vaxxer what they would do if they were bitten by a rabid animal. You can watch (cognitive) dissonance kick in." Of course I "get" your joke - and sympathize with the sentiment. I am on your team wrt vaccination policies. However, I also cringe at the notion that critical thought about vaccinations has been completely reduced to extreme, fundamental positions. I consider a specific, personal experience of this debate: I am a typical, unremarkable advocate of and participant in vaccination protocols in the United States. And yet, I think there should be critical thought and robust debate about the influenza vaccine(s)[1] and the emerging consensus that we should all consume this product, annually, forever. In my experience it is impossible to have this discussion because it immediately (and incorrectly) becomes a "vaxxer" debate. This should not be the case. Our critical thought about these increasingly complex medical, scientific, social and economic[2] issues should be encouraged - not swept up in a proxy fight between two "tribes". [1] A vaccine that I consume annually as part of local protocols for first responders / EMRs / Paramedics. [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/19/the-16-billion-business-of-flu.html https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/19/the-16-billion-business-of-f...
- pstuart 8y ago
  I'll bite. What would you like to see changed?
  - rsync 8y ago
    "I'll bite. What would you like to see changed?" I am uneasy about the very rapid (<10 year) shift from the influenza vaccine as a tool for immune-compromised individuals or emergency/health workers to a universal good that everyone consumes. I think there's a qualitative difference between a standard vaccine for a deadly or crippling disease like Rubella and a non-standard, reformulated every season, coin-flip efficacy vaccine for an illness that healthy adults and children in first world settings can withstand just fine. This is an application of a conservative heuristic: "if it isn't broken, don't fix it".
    - ghaff 8y ago
      I get a flu vaccine, in part for a couple of specific reasons. I haven't made a study of it though so I don't really have an opinion. One can at least raise an eyebrow though in noting how major pharmacy chains have taken to so promoting vaccinations. It started with flu. The latest is shingles. Again, I have no opinion on whether these are good ideas in general or not. But there are certainly commercial interests aligned with giving them to people.
Chris_Chambers 8y ago
If we don’t allow the weak to perish then they will reproduce and the genetic quality of our species will steadily decline.
conanbatt 8y ago
It would be also fun to give you a rabies vaccine, and a rabid bat, and see what would you say to not let the bat bite you.

pwagland 8y ago

They'd die. But there would be no dissonance, since they would just say "no-one gets rabies anymore", so, in their eyes, the argument is a non-sequitur.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

HarryHirsch 8y ago

Anti-vaxxers usually say the benefits outweigh the risks and don't consider herd immunity. When you've just been bitten by a rabid animal the risk-benefit calculation is different, no cognitive dissonance there. You'd also predict that an antivaccionationist hunter has at least his dog vaccinated against rabies, you see rabid foxes and raccoons out there with your own eyes. What you'd really like to do is ask an anti-vaxxer woman who is pregnant or trying to conceive what she thinks about measles, mumps and rubella vaccine, especially rubella.

lbriner 8y ago
Plenty of women in the UK turned it down due to unconfirmed (and now debunked) links to autism. It's just what you choose to believe and whether you think the risk of autism and its outcome is worse than the risk of Rubella and its outcome.

tomphoolery 8y ago

How would a vaccine help someone who already has rabies?

village-idiot 8y ago
The vaccine is extremely effective if taken between the bite and when symptoms occur. If treated properly and promptly, you have basically a 100% chance of living. As symptoms begin to show up, the chance of survival drops rapidly to 0%.
- aaron_m04 8y ago
  > As symptoms begin to show up, the chance of survival drops rapidly to 0%. Probably even before symptoms show up, right?
nostrademons 8y ago
It takes a while for rabies to travel from the muscle or skin cells of the original bite up into the central nervous system. The virus initially replicates inside muscle cells to avoid detection by the immune system, and only starts traveling up peripheral nerves once a sufficient viral load has been generated. PEP works by massively boosting the patient's immune system (via immunoglobulin) and sensitizing it to the rabies virus (via the vaccine) before the virus can get to the points (the brain) that it's impossible to remove it from. Think of an army retreating in wartime: if you know that the enemy has successfully established a beachhead within your country, the logical next step is to start fortifying cities & chokepoints so that as the enemy advances, they meet unbeatable resistance. That's also why it's critical to get treated ASAP after being bitten: once you show symptoms, it's too late.

TangoTrotFox 8y ago

Not against vaccines, but I think understanding the views of things you disagree with is important. And even more so on this issue because people believe things that even more absurd, but more socially acceptable - and so these ideas persist. The issue some have with vaccines is not generally an outright denial whether or not vaccines work. It's people weight the risk:reward of vaccines differently than others largely supplemented by a large number of correlations to all sorts of nasty things with vaccines. The reason the opposition to vaccines is not a reasonable view is because these are correlations and correlation is not the same as causation. At the same time consider the innumerable number of social views that people hold, and that continue to be published about, that are based absolutely and completely on correlations relying on the absence of evidence against causality, as evidence of causality. But of course proving a negative is impossible -- the burden of proving causality is on the one suggesting such exists. Failing to recognize this is the exact logical fallacy that drives the opposition to vaccines. If all correlations were held to the same standard as those that reflect negatively of vaccines, the world (and science itself) would be in much better shape.

VikingCoder 8y ago
> It's people weight the risk:reward of vaccines differently than others And they are wildly misinformed about the risks. And they neglect to consider that the reward of them vaccinating their kid is that MY KID is less likely to get those diseases. That's how herd immunity works. If they were only risking their own kid's life, then it'd be a very different conversation. > largely supplemented by a large number of correlations to all sorts of nasty things with vaccines. Except those are almost all exaggerated or outright lies. To be clear: if I were a selfish individual, I might not get vaccinated. Vaccines have actual risks. But the actual risks are minimal and rare. But I recognize that herd immunity works, and that the risks are minimal and rare.
- Chris_Chambers 8y ago
  If you’re so scared of the outside world then you ought to never let your child leave the house. Our rights don’t end where your mental illness begins.

rsync 8y ago

"It’s fun to ask an anti vaxxer what they would do if they were bitten by a rabid animal. You can watch (cognitive) dissonance kick in." Of course I "get" your joke - and sympathize with the sentiment. I am on your team wrt vaccination policies. However, I also cringe at the notion that critical thought about vaccinations has been completely reduced to extreme, fundamental positions. I consider a specific, personal experience of this debate: I am a typical, unremarkable advocate of and participant in vaccination protocols in the United States. And yet, I think there should be critical thought and robust debate about the influenza vaccine(s)[1] and the emerging consensus that we should all consume this product, annually, forever. In my experience it is impossible to have this discussion because it immediately (and incorrectly) becomes a "vaxxer" debate. This should not be the case. Our critical thought about these increasingly complex medical, scientific, social and economic[2] issues should be encouraged - not swept up in a proxy fight between two "tribes". [1] A vaccine that I consume annually as part of local protocols for first responders / EMRs / Paramedics. [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/19/the-16-billion-business-of-flu.html https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/19/the-16-billion-business-of-f...

pstuart 8y ago
I'll bite. What would you like to see changed?
- rsync 8y ago
  "I'll bite. What would you like to see changed?" I am uneasy about the very rapid (<10 year) shift from the influenza vaccine as a tool for immune-compromised individuals or emergency/health workers to a universal good that everyone consumes. I think there's a qualitative difference between a standard vaccine for a deadly or crippling disease like Rubella and a non-standard, reformulated every season, coin-flip efficacy vaccine for an illness that healthy adults and children in first world settings can withstand just fine. This is an application of a conservative heuristic: "if it isn't broken, don't fix it".
  - ghaff 8y ago
    I get a flu vaccine, in part for a couple of specific reasons. I haven't made a study of it though so I don't really have an opinion. One can at least raise an eyebrow though in noting how major pharmacy chains have taken to so promoting vaccinations. It started with flu. The latest is shingles. Again, I have no opinion on whether these are good ideas in general or not. But there are certainly commercial interests aligned with giving them to people.

Chris_Chambers 8y ago

If we don’t allow the weak to perish then they will reproduce and the genetic quality of our species will steadily decline.

conanbatt 8y ago

It would be also fun to give you a rabies vaccine, and a rabid bat, and see what would you say to not let the bat bite you.