5 ms·

Germany is ending nuclear power because there is no consensus on how and where to store nuclear waste. People tend to forget that the waste is dangerous for tho

by foepys 8y ago

Germany is ending nuclear power because there is no consensus on how and where to store nuclear waste. People tend to forget that the waste is dangerous for thousands of years to come and Germany doesn't have deserts to put it in. Putting it in the ground is a bad idea, as you can see if you just search the internet for "Asse nuclear".

woolvalley 8y ago
Export to the sahara?
- VyperCard 8y ago
  Where the wind blows the dust to europe every month? Sounds safe if anything should happen...
- b1daly 8y ago
  Maybe nuclear waste should be deliberately stored near population centers, helpfully incentivizing the populace to maintain the safety and integrity of long term storage.
sgt 8y ago
There's actually not that much of it. In fact, over the past 4 decades, the entire industry has produced about 62 500 metric tons of waste. You could probably put all of that in the space of a football field.
- VyperCard 8y ago
  Except that some of it has to be kept apart so it does not go critical, some has to be put in special containers...
  - sgt 8y ago
    I didn't mean dumping it all in a heap together, but putting it in e.g. high-density polyethylene should do the trick. It has the density of 930 to 970kg/m^3. Very good tensile strength and longevity. There's more than enough space and geologically stable locations to put this stuff. Politically speaking and in terms of getting nuclear back in the game, I wouldn't worry too much about waste with the modern solutions within storage.
AnthonyMouse 8y ago
Use it as reactor fuel. The "waste" which is radioactive for thousands of years is fissile and the fission byproducts are not radioactive for that long.
- kuschku 8y ago
  Germany is forbidden by international law from having the processing facilities that could re-enrich the spent fuel to reuse it.
  - nukemandan 8y ago
    use it as is in Molten Salt Reactors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor
  - jacobush 8y ago
    Ironic, since Germany is maybe the only country I would trust with such facilities. From a pure not-fucking-it-up perspective. (Ahem... cough Sellafield...)
    - kuschku 8y ago
      Well, look at the Asse II, Germany has a long tradition of fucking uo everything nuclear. The french actually are allowed to do it, and have the facilities, and don't have nearly as many issues.
      - lispm 8y ago
        I would not count on it, since in France everything nuclear is state controlled and largely state owned. Independent control is not on the level as in Germany.
      - jacobush 8y ago
        Ouch. Apparently €140 million of federal money is spent a year for the Asse clean-up, and they haven't even begun retrieving the 140k barrels yet?
realusername 8y ago
> People tend to forget that the waste is dangerous for thousands of years to come Why people always talk about that like it's the worst thing that ever happened? There's also dangerous chemical storage facilities and these products most of the time don't even degrade over time (so even longer than thousands of years), they are also stored in worse condition than nuclear waste. Despite all of that, I don't see any environmental group talking about it.
- lispm 8y ago
  Environmental groups talk a lot about chemical waste. > these products most of the time don't even degrade over time (so even longer than thousands of years) Just see fate of the German storage site Asse II: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/asse-atomlager-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/asse-atomlager-101.html That's a very costly problem: it will cost billions to fix it.
theshrike79 8y ago
Putting it in the ground is a very very good idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_repository https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_repo... Just because the Germans can't do it properly, doesn't mean it's impossible. And a BBC World Service podcast about Onkalo for your perusal: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cswvxg https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cswvxg
- codemusings 8y ago
  You seem to have no clue how small Germany is. So no. It's not because we don't know how to get rid of it. We have neither the space nor the geological properties that makes this easy. Also this disposal site is still in construction and a research group in 2012 already has cast doubt on the corrosion proofness. Nothing has been proven yet. This is not an easy problem.
ivan1783 8y ago
Because its better to spew all of the toxic exhaust generated by coal burning plants into the atmosphere? At least with nuclear you know where your waste is and you can control it.

by foepys 8y ago

woolvalley 8y ago

Export to the sahara?

VyperCard 8y ago
Where the wind blows the dust to europe every month? Sounds safe if anything should happen...
b1daly 8y ago
Maybe nuclear waste should be deliberately stored near population centers, helpfully incentivizing the populace to maintain the safety and integrity of long term storage.

sgt 8y ago

There's actually not that much of it. In fact, over the past 4 decades, the entire industry has produced about 62 500 metric tons of waste. You could probably put all of that in the space of a football field.

VyperCard 8y ago
Except that some of it has to be kept apart so it does not go critical, some has to be put in special containers...
- sgt 8y ago
  I didn't mean dumping it all in a heap together, but putting it in e.g. high-density polyethylene should do the trick. It has the density of 930 to 970kg/m^3. Very good tensile strength and longevity. There's more than enough space and geologically stable locations to put this stuff. Politically speaking and in terms of getting nuclear back in the game, I wouldn't worry too much about waste with the modern solutions within storage.

AnthonyMouse 8y ago

Use it as reactor fuel. The "waste" which is radioactive for thousands of years is fissile and the fission byproducts are not radioactive for that long.

kuschku 8y ago
Germany is forbidden by international law from having the processing facilities that could re-enrich the spent fuel to reuse it.
- nukemandan 8y ago
  use it as is in Molten Salt Reactors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor
- jacobush 8y ago
  Ironic, since Germany is maybe the only country I would trust with such facilities. From a pure not-fucking-it-up perspective. (Ahem... cough Sellafield...)
  - kuschku 8y ago
    Well, look at the Asse II, Germany has a long tradition of fucking uo everything nuclear. The french actually are allowed to do it, and have the facilities, and don't have nearly as many issues.
    - lispm 8y ago
      I would not count on it, since in France everything nuclear is state controlled and largely state owned. Independent control is not on the level as in Germany.
    - jacobush 8y ago
      Ouch. Apparently €140 million of federal money is spent a year for the Asse clean-up, and they haven't even begun retrieving the 140k barrels yet?

realusername 8y ago

> People tend to forget that the waste is dangerous for thousands of years to come Why people always talk about that like it's the worst thing that ever happened? There's also dangerous chemical storage facilities and these products most of the time don't even degrade over time (so even longer than thousands of years), they are also stored in worse condition than nuclear waste. Despite all of that, I don't see any environmental group talking about it.

lispm 8y ago
Environmental groups talk a lot about chemical waste. > these products most of the time don't even degrade over time (so even longer than thousands of years) Just see fate of the German storage site Asse II: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/asse-atomlager-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/asse-atomlager-101.html That's a very costly problem: it will cost billions to fix it.

theshrike79 8y ago

Putting it in the ground is a very very good idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_repository https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_repo... Just because the Germans can't do it properly, doesn't mean it's impossible. And a BBC World Service podcast about Onkalo for your perusal: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cswvxg https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cswvxg

codemusings 8y ago
You seem to have no clue how small Germany is. So no. It's not because we don't know how to get rid of it. We have neither the space nor the geological properties that makes this easy. Also this disposal site is still in construction and a research group in 2012 already has cast doubt on the corrosion proofness. Nothing has been proven yet. This is not an easy problem.

ivan1783 8y ago

Because its better to spew all of the toxic exhaust generated by coal burning plants into the atmosphere? At least with nuclear you know where your waste is and you can control it.