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>The methods of science, engineering and rational reasoning are the best tools we have for solving world problems. How do you feel about the fact that was is r

>The methods of science, engineering and rational reasoning are the best tools we have for solving world problems. How do you feel about the fact that was is rational and irrational (indeed our whole meta-rational basis) has changed in time according not to new discoveries but merely the movement of the cultural zeitgeist[0]? What about the differences between instrumental reason (and rationality), technological rationality in which modern technology changes what we see as rational (see Marcuse) and rationality of ends, rather than just the means? My point is that we can't simply say "rationality" as if it's a fixed tool we can use so easily, at least, we can't use it without also considering the current ideological context in which we are using it. Surely you admit there are different rationalities, such as economic rationality, which would seem to eschew any human factor that does not count towards profit efficiency? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_of_Reason_(Horkheimer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_of_Reason_(Horkheimer)

TeMPOraL 8y ago
The way I see it, rationality doesn't choose your values for you, the same way mathematical reasoning doesn't choose your axioms for you. It's not a fixed tool in a sense that we're still discovering its various methods, but it is a tool that should not depend on cultural context - because what works to achieve your goal or correctly predict consequences doesn't change even as your goal might. Or, in other words, the principle of "garbage in, garbage out" applies.
- claudiawerner 8y ago
  Isn't rationality the principle of GIGO, though? Let's say I have a garbage idea, but my methods for acheiving it are rationally constructed - isn't this even a little problematic? Surely me must judge not only the means (and ignore any aspect of the goal) but to look and examine whether the goal is a good too. But if your claim is that rationality is independent of culture (which, as I've already noted, is rubbish, since the idea of what is rational and irrational changes with cultural zeitgeist, unless you have some claim to objective rationality which I don't) then we can't use a static methods of rationality to judge the goodness of a particular goal, which is obviously context-dependent. So if not rationality, then what? I suggest critical thinking in place.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    > Isn't rationality the principle of GIGO, though? Let's say I have a garbage idea, but my methods for acheiving it are rationally constructed - isn't this even a little problematic? Surely me must judge not only the means (and ignore any aspect of the goal) but to look and examine whether the goal is a good too. That's what I was trying to say in my previous comment. Even if you execute rational reasoning perfectly, if you start with garbage input, you end up with garbage output. If you intrinsically value something horrible, e.g. murdering kittens, rationality isn't going to tell you to not do it; on the contrary, it'll suggest the most effective means of doing that. > But if your claim is that rationality is independent of culture (which, as I've already noted, is rubbish, since the idea of what is rational and irrational changes with cultural zeitgeist, unless you have some claim to objective rationality which I don't) I meant it in the same way in which 2+2=4 or F=ma are independent of culture. Of course the work of discovering rational reasoning was happening over long time, with important contributions in Ancient Greece and earlier. But we've only recently managed to get some good formal tools applicable to real-life problems of reasoning, namely probability theory. > then we can't use a static methods of rationality to judge the goodness of a particular goal, which is obviously context-dependent. So if not rationality, then what? I suggest critical thinking in place. What do you suggest this "critical thinking" is made of? As for judging the goodness of a particular goal - you can decompose that into parts that can be judged rationally on their effectiveness (and consistency), and parts that have to be judged morally.

TeMPOraL 8y ago

The way I see it, rationality doesn't choose your values for you, the same way mathematical reasoning doesn't choose your axioms for you. It's not a fixed tool in a sense that we're still discovering its various methods, but it is a tool that should not depend on cultural context - because what works to achieve your goal or correctly predict consequences doesn't change even as your goal might. Or, in other words, the principle of "garbage in, garbage out" applies.

claudiawerner 8y ago
Isn't rationality the principle of GIGO, though? Let's say I have a garbage idea, but my methods for acheiving it are rationally constructed - isn't this even a little problematic? Surely me must judge not only the means (and ignore any aspect of the goal) but to look and examine whether the goal is a good too. But if your claim is that rationality is independent of culture (which, as I've already noted, is rubbish, since the idea of what is rational and irrational changes with cultural zeitgeist, unless you have some claim to objective rationality which I don't) then we can't use a static methods of rationality to judge the goodness of a particular goal, which is obviously context-dependent. So if not rationality, then what? I suggest critical thinking in place.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  > Isn't rationality the principle of GIGO, though? Let's say I have a garbage idea, but my methods for acheiving it are rationally constructed - isn't this even a little problematic? Surely me must judge not only the means (and ignore any aspect of the goal) but to look and examine whether the goal is a good too. That's what I was trying to say in my previous comment. Even if you execute rational reasoning perfectly, if you start with garbage input, you end up with garbage output. If you intrinsically value something horrible, e.g. murdering kittens, rationality isn't going to tell you to not do it; on the contrary, it'll suggest the most effective means of doing that. > But if your claim is that rationality is independent of culture (which, as I've already noted, is rubbish, since the idea of what is rational and irrational changes with cultural zeitgeist, unless you have some claim to objective rationality which I don't) I meant it in the same way in which 2+2=4 or F=ma are independent of culture. Of course the work of discovering rational reasoning was happening over long time, with important contributions in Ancient Greece and earlier. But we've only recently managed to get some good formal tools applicable to real-life problems of reasoning, namely probability theory. > then we can't use a static methods of rationality to judge the goodness of a particular goal, which is obviously context-dependent. So if not rationality, then what? I suggest critical thinking in place. What do you suggest this "critical thinking" is made of? As for judging the goodness of a particular goal - you can decompose that into parts that can be judged rationally on their effectiveness (and consistency), and parts that have to be judged morally.