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Are you suggesting that it’s not fair for individuals to vote who have a constitutional right to vote? Instead of attacking the constitution I’d suggest critiq

Are you suggesting that it’s not fair for individuals to vote who have a constitutional right to vote? Instead of attacking the constitution I’d suggest critiquing the parties (and their policies) in power.

PKop 8y ago
Why do you want to cite the legality of 2nd generation voters voting, but not cit the illegality of their parents coming here? It's not fair to embrace law breaking when the consequences disenfranchise 1 party, 1 ideology, along w/ the pressure it applies to wages and social services demands. I'm quite simply stating, it is unfair to turn your back on law breaking that may benefit some people (and of course certainly benefits the immigrant) while harming others, who happen to be citizens the law is designed to protect. Can you articulate to me why you think we even have a law against illegal immigration, before you dismiss my point of view out of hand?
- jedberg 8y ago
  > it is unfair to turn your back on law breaking that may benefit some people (and of course certainly benefits the immigrant) while harming others Who exactly is harmed by someone coming to this country? They don't qualify for any benefits paid for by tax dollars. They do however pay taxes. So in fact they are a net positive to anyone who is already here. I'm curious how you think they harm a citizen just by being here.
  - sosense 8y ago
    Taxes and cost/benefit aside, do you believe there should be no borders?
    - jedberg 8y ago
      I believe we should have borders, but I think we should let anyone in who wants to come in, once they've gone through a criminal background check. In other words, same policies as we have now, but no quotas on any type of visa. You know, the way it was for the first 150 years of this country.
      - sosense 8y ago
        You're in favor of potentially billions of people going to the US on visas? Do you support the same policies for other countries, like Israel for example? Your comments that there have never been visa limits before, and that illegals are a net benefit are arguable at best.
        jedberg 8y ago
        Well before 1882, the United States had a completely open border. Anyone could enter at any time. There were some rules in place to expel certain people, but anyone could come. And the first quota was the Chinese exclusion act of 1882, born out of pure racism of the Chinese. Ellis island opened in 1891. At that time they only excluded the sick and known criminals. It wasn’t until 1921 that general quotas were put in place. So you’re right it wasn’t 150 years, it was only 145. If you don’t count the 150 years before that when we were a British colony with open borders. And billions would not come to the US. The poorest person in the US is still in the top 15% worldwide. So unless you’re one of the 1 billion in that group you probably aren’t coming here. And of those one billion, 400 million already live here and many of the rest live in Europe and have it better there than here. So no I’m not worried about it. They would still need a job or they would t survive long. Israel is a special case, but yeah I think they should have secure borders with no quota too.
        sosense 8y ago
        The hundreds of thousands of visa overstays translates to potentially unlimited migration under your idea. This is not 1882 anymore.
- bognition 8y ago
  The point you made above was that the illegal immigrants are "diluting your vote": > What about the civil rights of American citizens who don't want their votes and social services diluted by illegal immigrants This is a misrepresentation of the facts. Yes its true that these children would not have been American if their parents hadn't immigrated to America. However, they _were_ born in America and the immigration status of their parents has no legal baring on their citizenship or right to vote. They have as much of a legal right to vote as any other American.
  - PKop 8y ago
    The enforcement (or non enforcement against illegal immigration), and the presence of (or lack of) a strong border... And additionally just a larger proportion of legal immigration from 1 area since 1965 immigration act, have had massive effect upon demographic change. I know they were born here. Despite some controversy over birthright citizenship, I get that they are legal. Not in dispute here. Where is the misrepresentation that if we had less Hispanic illegal immigrants we'd have less Hispanic population and voters? California was long a red state. It also had about 90% white voters for a long time. As it has become majority minority, it has gone strongly blue. Look at demographic breakdown of issues and elections and the reason is obvious. A conservative should be ok with this?

PKop 8y ago

Why do you want to cite the legality of 2nd generation voters voting, but not cit the illegality of their parents coming here? It's not fair to embrace law breaking when the consequences disenfranchise 1 party, 1 ideology, along w/ the pressure it applies to wages and social services demands. I'm quite simply stating, it is unfair to turn your back on law breaking that may benefit some people (and of course certainly benefits the immigrant) while harming others, who happen to be citizens the law is designed to protect. Can you articulate to me why you think we even have a law against illegal immigration, before you dismiss my point of view out of hand?

jedberg 8y ago
> it is unfair to turn your back on law breaking that may benefit some people (and of course certainly benefits the immigrant) while harming others Who exactly is harmed by someone coming to this country? They don't qualify for any benefits paid for by tax dollars. They do however pay taxes. So in fact they are a net positive to anyone who is already here. I'm curious how you think they harm a citizen just by being here.
- sosense 8y ago
  Taxes and cost/benefit aside, do you believe there should be no borders?
  - jedberg 8y ago
    I believe we should have borders, but I think we should let anyone in who wants to come in, once they've gone through a criminal background check. In other words, same policies as we have now, but no quotas on any type of visa. You know, the way it was for the first 150 years of this country.
    - sosense 8y ago
      You're in favor of potentially billions of people going to the US on visas? Do you support the same policies for other countries, like Israel for example? Your comments that there have never been visa limits before, and that illegals are a net benefit are arguable at best.
      - jedberg 8y ago
        Well before 1882, the United States had a completely open border. Anyone could enter at any time. There were some rules in place to expel certain people, but anyone could come. And the first quota was the Chinese exclusion act of 1882, born out of pure racism of the Chinese. Ellis island opened in 1891. At that time they only excluded the sick and known criminals. It wasn’t until 1921 that general quotas were put in place. So you’re right it wasn’t 150 years, it was only 145. If you don’t count the 150 years before that when we were a British colony with open borders. And billions would not come to the US. The poorest person in the US is still in the top 15% worldwide. So unless you’re one of the 1 billion in that group you probably aren’t coming here. And of those one billion, 400 million already live here and many of the rest live in Europe and have it better there than here. So no I’m not worried about it. They would still need a job or they would t survive long. Israel is a special case, but yeah I think they should have secure borders with no quota too.
        sosense 8y ago
        The hundreds of thousands of visa overstays translates to potentially unlimited migration under your idea. This is not 1882 anymore.
bognition 8y ago
The point you made above was that the illegal immigrants are "diluting your vote": > What about the civil rights of American citizens who don't want their votes and social services diluted by illegal immigrants This is a misrepresentation of the facts. Yes its true that these children would not have been American if their parents hadn't immigrated to America. However, they _were_ born in America and the immigration status of their parents has no legal baring on their citizenship or right to vote. They have as much of a legal right to vote as any other American.
- PKop 8y ago
  The enforcement (or non enforcement against illegal immigration), and the presence of (or lack of) a strong border... And additionally just a larger proportion of legal immigration from 1 area since 1965 immigration act, have had massive effect upon demographic change. I know they were born here. Despite some controversy over birthright citizenship, I get that they are legal. Not in dispute here. Where is the misrepresentation that if we had less Hispanic illegal immigrants we'd have less Hispanic population and voters? California was long a red state. It also had about 90% white voters for a long time. As it has become majority minority, it has gone strongly blue. Look at demographic breakdown of issues and elections and the reason is obvious. A conservative should be ok with this?