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Taking that argument to its logical conclusion, there should be no public policy whatsoever. Every single policy has at its roots an evidenceless belief. As a

Taking that argument to its logical conclusion, there should be no public policy whatsoever. Every single policy has at its roots an evidenceless belief. As an extreme example, "Seat belts save lives" is an objective truth, but "Saving lives is a good thing" is an evidenceless belief. That is it believed by the vast majority of the human race in no way constitutes evidence. Evidenceless beliefs are what need to dictate the goals of policy, because there is no other way to decide on a goal. Once the goal has been decided, objective truths must be what determine the best way to reach that goal.

pmarreck 8y ago
Good point technically but I think some subjective valuations are widespread enough to be able to be considered objective, such as "alive/animate things are better than dead/inanimate things", and "joy is superior to pain", and "murdering is bad". And regarding pain/pleasure, you can always do what doctors do and ask patients to assign the intensity a number from 1-10, which is basically a hack that takes a qualitative subjective valuation into the quantitative objective world where it can then be reasoned about. We already do this in a quite literal way with money, the price of things follows the subjective valuation of those things, so for example if a bit of paint on canvas in a frame which would otherwise only be worth $40 is the Mona Lisa, then it is suddenly (and seemingly magically) worth $800 million. You could use this to evaluate joy and harm as well, in the form "what is the maximum amount of money you would spend to be able to eliminate this harm or to experience this joy?"
- cirgue 8y ago
  I disagree that joy is superior to pain. They’re both necessary parts of life and one without the other is indistinguishable from oblivion. Plenty of people would disagree about alive/animate versus dead/inanimate and in ways that would probably surprise you. I like mountains, I think they’re certainly more interesting and beautiful than pigeons. As for “murder is bad”, plenty of people disagree vehemently about the definition of murder. Is killing to defend someone else murder? What about killing someone during war time? Those aren’t even close to being settled issues and are absolutely matters of belief that are not provable in any scientific sense.
- MereInterest 8y ago
  I think the distinction is a useful one to have, because it lets you identify the appropriate way to try to convince somebody. If people disagree about the effectiveness of policies, and which ones will bring about the desired effects, then additional evidence should be found and examined to determine who is correct. On the other hand, if people disagree about what the goal is, then no amount of evidence will convince them, because goals are unobservable.
wolfgke 8y ago
> As an extreme example, "Seat belts save lives" is an objective truth, but "Saving lives is a good thing" is an evidenceless belief. That is it believed by the vast majority of the human race in no way constitutes evidence. I disagree: I am strongly opposed to force by violence (laws) to prevent people from doing stupid things to themselves. In this sense, I do not necessarily consider saving lives a good thing (of course, there do exist lots of cases where I do). P.S.: I strongly recommend wearing seatbelts, but am opposed to seatbelt laws.
- Nadya 8y ago
  Let's try and give your picture a new frame. It may change your opinion on seatbelt laws! :) From what I've been told and have read, the fines for not wearing a seatbelt are less about preventing people from making a potentially life threatening decision and more about preventing people from making a really bloody mess that tax payers then have to pay to clean up. A dead body strapped inside of a car is a lot easier to clean up than a dead body thrown 60 feet down the road and torn into who knows how many pieces in the process. Not to mention that what is the equivalent to a human cannonball can cause further damage to property and people who are unfortunate enough to be in the way. Thinking of the fine as "Increasing Cost to Society" instead of "Preventing you from endangering yourself" makes it more agreeable to me - as I think we agree on the stance that laws that prevent people from doing stupid things to themselves aren't good laws. Laws that reduce wasteful costs to society so that funding can be put into less wasteful things, in my opinion at least, are good laws though. Since most laws against preventing people from doing stupid things to themselves saves wasteful spending - I agree with them within that framing of the picture.
  - spookthesunset 8y ago
    To simplify what you just wrote.... "Increasing Cost to Society": You are forcing folks to internalize an externality. Same with carbon cap & trade schemes. Same with helmet laws. Same with toll roads. Etc...
- tathougies 8y ago
  Why are you opposed to force by violence?
naasking 8y ago
> "Saving lives is a good thing" is an evidenceless belief. Is it? Any kind of value system must presuppose the value of life because only life can hold something valuable. Value systems that do not are therefore inconsistent.
- MereInterest 8y ago
  I don't see any inconsistency there. For example, I could imagine a value system that solely values the existence of paper clips. Actions that increase the number of paper clips in the universe are good, while actions that decrease the number of paper clips in the universe are bad. Life has value only in as much as it causes paper clips to exist. It would be a rather silly value system for a human to have, but there wouldn't be any inconsistency in it.
  - naasking 8y ago
    If paper clips are the highest good, then ensuring that paper clips will be made in perpetuity is also of utmost importance. Only life is capable of knowing the goodness of paper clips, ergo we should ensure life's continuance so as to ensure the continued production of paper clips. With the invention of machines we could replace life with more efficient automated systems that produce paper clips, but stupid machines cannot adapt to changing circumstances, like outside threats in the form of asteroids, climate change, earth quakes, and so on. Therefore the machines should be at least as intelligent as possible so as to adapt to any circumstances and ensure the continued production of paper clips. Intelligent machines are simply another form of life. This obviously wouldn't happen overnight, but with the gradual introduction of more and more technology, the creators would more and more integrate with their machines. Any value system that denies the value of life is simply inconsistent.

pmarreck 8y ago

Good point technically but I think some subjective valuations are widespread enough to be able to be considered objective, such as "alive/animate things are better than dead/inanimate things", and "joy is superior to pain", and "murdering is bad". And regarding pain/pleasure, you can always do what doctors do and ask patients to assign the intensity a number from 1-10, which is basically a hack that takes a qualitative subjective valuation into the quantitative objective world where it can then be reasoned about. We already do this in a quite literal way with money, the price of things follows the subjective valuation of those things, so for example if a bit of paint on canvas in a frame which would otherwise only be worth $40 is the Mona Lisa, then it is suddenly (and seemingly magically) worth $800 million. You could use this to evaluate joy and harm as well, in the form "what is the maximum amount of money you would spend to be able to eliminate this harm or to experience this joy?"

cirgue 8y ago
I disagree that joy is superior to pain. They’re both necessary parts of life and one without the other is indistinguishable from oblivion. Plenty of people would disagree about alive/animate versus dead/inanimate and in ways that would probably surprise you. I like mountains, I think they’re certainly more interesting and beautiful than pigeons. As for “murder is bad”, plenty of people disagree vehemently about the definition of murder. Is killing to defend someone else murder? What about killing someone during war time? Those aren’t even close to being settled issues and are absolutely matters of belief that are not provable in any scientific sense.
MereInterest 8y ago
I think the distinction is a useful one to have, because it lets you identify the appropriate way to try to convince somebody. If people disagree about the effectiveness of policies, and which ones will bring about the desired effects, then additional evidence should be found and examined to determine who is correct. On the other hand, if people disagree about what the goal is, then no amount of evidence will convince them, because goals are unobservable.

wolfgke 8y ago

> As an extreme example, "Seat belts save lives" is an objective truth, but "Saving lives is a good thing" is an evidenceless belief. That is it believed by the vast majority of the human race in no way constitutes evidence. I disagree: I am strongly opposed to force by violence (laws) to prevent people from doing stupid things to themselves. In this sense, I do not necessarily consider saving lives a good thing (of course, there do exist lots of cases where I do). P.S.: I strongly recommend wearing seatbelts, but am opposed to seatbelt laws.

Nadya 8y ago
Let's try and give your picture a new frame. It may change your opinion on seatbelt laws! :) From what I've been told and have read, the fines for not wearing a seatbelt are less about preventing people from making a potentially life threatening decision and more about preventing people from making a really bloody mess that tax payers then have to pay to clean up. A dead body strapped inside of a car is a lot easier to clean up than a dead body thrown 60 feet down the road and torn into who knows how many pieces in the process. Not to mention that what is the equivalent to a human cannonball can cause further damage to property and people who are unfortunate enough to be in the way. Thinking of the fine as "Increasing Cost to Society" instead of "Preventing you from endangering yourself" makes it more agreeable to me - as I think we agree on the stance that laws that prevent people from doing stupid things to themselves aren't good laws. Laws that reduce wasteful costs to society so that funding can be put into less wasteful things, in my opinion at least, are good laws though. Since most laws against preventing people from doing stupid things to themselves saves wasteful spending - I agree with them within that framing of the picture.
- spookthesunset 8y ago
  To simplify what you just wrote.... "Increasing Cost to Society": You are forcing folks to internalize an externality. Same with carbon cap & trade schemes. Same with helmet laws. Same with toll roads. Etc...
tathougies 8y ago
Why are you opposed to force by violence?

naasking 8y ago

> "Saving lives is a good thing" is an evidenceless belief. Is it? Any kind of value system must presuppose the value of life because only life can hold something valuable. Value systems that do not are therefore inconsistent.

MereInterest 8y ago
I don't see any inconsistency there. For example, I could imagine a value system that solely values the existence of paper clips. Actions that increase the number of paper clips in the universe are good, while actions that decrease the number of paper clips in the universe are bad. Life has value only in as much as it causes paper clips to exist. It would be a rather silly value system for a human to have, but there wouldn't be any inconsistency in it.
- naasking 8y ago
  If paper clips are the highest good, then ensuring that paper clips will be made in perpetuity is also of utmost importance. Only life is capable of knowing the goodness of paper clips, ergo we should ensure life's continuance so as to ensure the continued production of paper clips. With the invention of machines we could replace life with more efficient automated systems that produce paper clips, but stupid machines cannot adapt to changing circumstances, like outside threats in the form of asteroids, climate change, earth quakes, and so on. Therefore the machines should be at least as intelligent as possible so as to adapt to any circumstances and ensure the continued production of paper clips. Intelligent machines are simply another form of life. This obviously wouldn't happen overnight, but with the gradual introduction of more and more technology, the creators would more and more integrate with their machines. Any value system that denies the value of life is simply inconsistent.