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I think one of the bigger issues that isn't being addressed is the current up and coming pilots don't have the basic pilot skills to overcome the systems when t

I think one of the bigger issues that isn't being addressed is the current up and coming pilots don't have the basic pilot skills to overcome the systems when they fail. Flying has become so automated, that a pilot is only required to fly on take off and landing, and even landings are optional on a lot of planes now. When one is confronted with a lack of control caused by those systems, and having been so removed from general flying that they end up panicking and crashing. It's such a deal that the FAA is reviewing flight training because Airline pilots are struggling with even the basics such as go arounds and stall recovery. Below is an article about the FAA's struggles[1]. And an article about how most pilots couldn't actually pull off a Sully type landing[2]. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/industry-sounds-warnings-on-airline-pilot-skills-352727/ https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/industry-sounds-w... https://nymag.com/news/features/53788/index1.html https://nymag.com/news/features/53788/index1.html

AWildC182 8y ago
I'm curious what the difference is in feel between a 737 and the GA trainers they all started on. I've flown without AoA (in the clouds no less) or even a stall horn but without seeing anything you still know what the plane is trying to do aerodynamically. At low speed most planes will get a little "rough" (kinda like high frequency, low amplitude turbulence) and the control surfaces will respond sluggishly whereas at high speed the controls feel sharp, trim controls have vastly more effect and slight changes in direction have a stronger feeling of G-force. I haven't flown anything with hydraulic or fly-by-wire controls so I'm not sure how much logic is being applied to augment input depending on speed which might have an effect. That and heavier airplanes respond more slowly and generally dampen aerodynamic oscillation more.
- SomeHacker44 8y ago
  What happens leading up to and in a stall is very heavily dependent on the plane. A Cessna 152/172 and Diamond DA-20/40 have very different stall characteristics despite being similar size. My 310R and my old Mooney are very different and I do not think I ever fully stalled the former. I know for sure I never fully stalled any straight-wing jet I fly and have no direct experience with swept wing jets (like the one in question here). So, stall characteristics just don’t generalize well in my experience.
  - AWildC182 8y ago
    Sure, a cessna 152/172/182 or piper will universally mush then break somewhat cleanly but evenly downwards where as most aerobatic planes/taildraggers will try to enter a full spin if you look at them funny. I'm more interested in how you can get into a high AOA, low airspeed condition without noticing something is off. As AOA increases, indicated airspeed decreases further so it seems like nobody was even bothered so much as to glance down at it for a split second during the lead up. Also, how did they allow themselves to get so much pitch or so little throttle that a full stall developed. Edit: Re read and realized they never actually mentioned a stall, but rather they probably thought they were approaching one and just kept mashing the nose down trim switch because AOA was reading high so they probably over-sped the aircraft. I guess my point becomes: why does it seems like they were only flying off of AOA?? Edit Edit: The wording suggests it wasn't even the pilots making the input, the AOA sensor was making automatic inputs and the airplane probably over-sped and broke up (or someone freaked out and pulled up hard).
    - bonzini 8y ago
      > I'm more interested in how you can get into a high AOA, low airspeed condition without noticing something is off. As AOA increases, indicated airspeed decreases further so it seems like nobody was even bothered so much as to glance down at it for a split second during the lead up. Maybe you were confusing this accident with AF447, which indeed stalled due to an excessive AoA?
gshulegaard 8y ago
This is somewhat being compounded/driven by the pilot shortage/crunch in the aviation industry. Typical costs for becoming a pilot are high and the immediate returns are low. Sure if you become a senior Captain with a major airline like United you can make good money, but before you get there you start by flying for a regional making as low as $20k a year: https://www.economist.com/gulliver/2016/03/09/america-is-running-out-of-people-to-fly-its-planes https://www.economist.com/gulliver/2016/03/09/america-is-run... And if you are facing student loans that is a wringer. So now that airlines are expanding, the majors are having trouble finding experienced or qualified pilots since many people forgo pursuing it as a career. For high growth markets, like Asia, they have resorted to lowering license requirements with things like the Multi-crew Pilot License (MPL) which is all sorts of alarming (remember when that Asiana flight crashed on landing in SFO?).
- eternalny1 8y ago
  Hence why I am a certified commercial pilot, Embry-Riddle graduate, and am now a software developer browsing HN. Not looking back.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- cm2187 8y ago
  Also I understand pilots are discouraged from taking risk when flying a small private plane on their free time as it could hurt their professional license. But on the other hands that’s the sort of experience that becomes handy in those catastrophic failure scenarios.
  - mjevans 8y ago
    Quite the mis-aligned incentive. At the very least hard core simulator time to initially train the reflexes and some real 'stunt' flight hours in actual air to overcome the fear when real forces are involved seems to be in order.
  - 8y ago
dreamcompiler 8y ago
Agreed. AoA indicators are extremely useful but until recently most pilots learned to fly without them, and they still should. The loss of an AoA indicator absolutely should not prevent a skilled pilot from flying the plane. Losing an AoA indicator entirely is probably easier to deal with than false readings from one, but again, a skilled pilot should be able to tell when the readings are false and fly the plane.
- AWildC182 8y ago
  Looking closely at what they said, it seems like the AOA sensor was automatically making trim inputs which caused the plane to ultimately develop a very nose-down trim condition. Basically a high tech version of a runaway trim control which is why you often see split trim buttons so a switch failure can't cause a runaway.
  - PuffinBlue 8y ago
    You're right and this point needs to be emphasized. Unless you know how to turn off the Flight Control Computers and the right moment to do so - which may or may not even be in the checklist (any pilot want to chime in?) - then even with autopilot disengaged modern jets will still operate flight control surfaces if a 'dangerous' configuration is detected. Of course with bad data going in you get bad data out, so the FCC can take actions that put the aircraft in danger as it thinks it's in a situation is isn't really in. As far as I understand it, you can't simply override these inputs with pilot input, you need to actually shut down the FCC to get back control.
    - lisper 8y ago
      https://leehamnews.com/2018/11/07/boeing-issues-737-operations-manual-bulletin-after-lion-air-accident/ https://leehamnews.com/2018/11/07/boeing-issues-737-operatio...
  - caf 8y ago
    Yes, in fact the AD update to the flight manual is a list of further indications for when the Runaway Stabilizer procedure should be followed.
csours 8y ago
Classic talk on this topic: Children of Magenta - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10 99PI - https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/children-of-the-magenta-automation-paradox-pt-1/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/children-of-the-magen...
- ryanmarsh 8y ago
  This talk really opened my eyes to the quality of pilot training and effects of automation dependency. The fact that this was a problem in 1997 and that systems have gotten significantly more powerful and complex since then. Anyone interested in self driving cars should watch this too.
yread 8y ago
You might be right, but this case is not the best example. Here loss of AoA sensors led to plane trimming down when flying in manual mode. So, more manual flying worsened the situation here (because they may not have cutout the stab trim...)
tspike 8y ago
This is an interesting take, and one I'm surprised about given the recent increase in required flight time for an ATP (Air Transport Pilot) certificate from 250 hours to 1500 hours. I'm sure I'm misunderstanding, but wouldn't current up and coming pilots be more experienced to handle these types of situations given the additional hours needed?
contingencies 8y ago
Near where I am based in China there is a mandatory pilot training facility for one of the major airlines. Pilots must train for one week every year in the simulator. Once every month or two I run in to foreign pilots in town for this purpose. I met two recently and specifically asked them about the Lion Air event and their training for failures, based on the assumption that they must train for complete system failure. They said that in truth the probability of complete system failure is so low that completely manual training is now considered irrelevant to annual review and is not even performed. As an example, they said that the rudder of a typical plane has three redundant hydraulic systems, all of which are routed differently through the airframe and all of which would need to fail to lose control. In short, they have statistically more significant areas to train on, limited training time and budget, and it has been correspondingly deprioritized. This seems to be in direct contrast to boat sailing, where one of the most common and significant drills given to new sailors right across the world is learning to effectively steer a vessel using sail trim to compensate for a loss of rudder or rudder control.
plandis 8y ago
There is a semi-famous write up about this: http://www.bainbrdg.demon.co.uk/Papers/Ironies.html http://www.bainbrdg.demon.co.uk/Papers/Ironies.html

AWildC182 8y ago

I'm curious what the difference is in feel between a 737 and the GA trainers they all started on. I've flown without AoA (in the clouds no less) or even a stall horn but without seeing anything you still know what the plane is trying to do aerodynamically. At low speed most planes will get a little "rough" (kinda like high frequency, low amplitude turbulence) and the control surfaces will respond sluggishly whereas at high speed the controls feel sharp, trim controls have vastly more effect and slight changes in direction have a stronger feeling of G-force. I haven't flown anything with hydraulic or fly-by-wire controls so I'm not sure how much logic is being applied to augment input depending on speed which might have an effect. That and heavier airplanes respond more slowly and generally dampen aerodynamic oscillation more.

SomeHacker44 8y ago
What happens leading up to and in a stall is very heavily dependent on the plane. A Cessna 152/172 and Diamond DA-20/40 have very different stall characteristics despite being similar size. My 310R and my old Mooney are very different and I do not think I ever fully stalled the former. I know for sure I never fully stalled any straight-wing jet I fly and have no direct experience with swept wing jets (like the one in question here). So, stall characteristics just don’t generalize well in my experience.
- AWildC182 8y ago
  Sure, a cessna 152/172/182 or piper will universally mush then break somewhat cleanly but evenly downwards where as most aerobatic planes/taildraggers will try to enter a full spin if you look at them funny. I'm more interested in how you can get into a high AOA, low airspeed condition without noticing something is off. As AOA increases, indicated airspeed decreases further so it seems like nobody was even bothered so much as to glance down at it for a split second during the lead up. Also, how did they allow themselves to get so much pitch or so little throttle that a full stall developed. Edit: Re read and realized they never actually mentioned a stall, but rather they probably thought they were approaching one and just kept mashing the nose down trim switch because AOA was reading high so they probably over-sped the aircraft. I guess my point becomes: why does it seems like they were only flying off of AOA?? Edit Edit: The wording suggests it wasn't even the pilots making the input, the AOA sensor was making automatic inputs and the airplane probably over-sped and broke up (or someone freaked out and pulled up hard).
  - bonzini 8y ago
    > I'm more interested in how you can get into a high AOA, low airspeed condition without noticing something is off. As AOA increases, indicated airspeed decreases further so it seems like nobody was even bothered so much as to glance down at it for a split second during the lead up. Maybe you were confusing this accident with AF447, which indeed stalled due to an excessive AoA?

gshulegaard 8y ago

This is somewhat being compounded/driven by the pilot shortage/crunch in the aviation industry. Typical costs for becoming a pilot are high and the immediate returns are low. Sure if you become a senior Captain with a major airline like United you can make good money, but before you get there you start by flying for a regional making as low as $20k a year: https://www.economist.com/gulliver/2016/03/09/america-is-running-out-of-people-to-fly-its-planes https://www.economist.com/gulliver/2016/03/09/america-is-run... And if you are facing student loans that is a wringer. So now that airlines are expanding, the majors are having trouble finding experienced or qualified pilots since many people forgo pursuing it as a career. For high growth markets, like Asia, they have resorted to lowering license requirements with things like the Multi-crew Pilot License (MPL) which is all sorts of alarming (remember when that Asiana flight crashed on landing in SFO?).

eternalny1 8y ago
Hence why I am a certified commercial pilot, Embry-Riddle graduate, and am now a software developer browsing HN. Not looking back.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
cm2187 8y ago
Also I understand pilots are discouraged from taking risk when flying a small private plane on their free time as it could hurt their professional license. But on the other hands that’s the sort of experience that becomes handy in those catastrophic failure scenarios.
- mjevans 8y ago
  Quite the mis-aligned incentive. At the very least hard core simulator time to initially train the reflexes and some real 'stunt' flight hours in actual air to overcome the fear when real forces are involved seems to be in order.
- 8y ago

dreamcompiler 8y ago

Agreed. AoA indicators are extremely useful but until recently most pilots learned to fly without them, and they still should. The loss of an AoA indicator absolutely should not prevent a skilled pilot from flying the plane. Losing an AoA indicator entirely is probably easier to deal with than false readings from one, but again, a skilled pilot should be able to tell when the readings are false and fly the plane.

AWildC182 8y ago
Looking closely at what they said, it seems like the AOA sensor was automatically making trim inputs which caused the plane to ultimately develop a very nose-down trim condition. Basically a high tech version of a runaway trim control which is why you often see split trim buttons so a switch failure can't cause a runaway.
- PuffinBlue 8y ago
  You're right and this point needs to be emphasized. Unless you know how to turn off the Flight Control Computers and the right moment to do so - which may or may not even be in the checklist (any pilot want to chime in?) - then even with autopilot disengaged modern jets will still operate flight control surfaces if a 'dangerous' configuration is detected. Of course with bad data going in you get bad data out, so the FCC can take actions that put the aircraft in danger as it thinks it's in a situation is isn't really in. As far as I understand it, you can't simply override these inputs with pilot input, you need to actually shut down the FCC to get back control.
  - lisper 8y ago
    https://leehamnews.com/2018/11/07/boeing-issues-737-operations-manual-bulletin-after-lion-air-accident/ https://leehamnews.com/2018/11/07/boeing-issues-737-operatio...
- caf 8y ago
  Yes, in fact the AD update to the flight manual is a list of further indications for when the Runaway Stabilizer procedure should be followed.

csours 8y ago

Classic talk on this topic: Children of Magenta - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10 99PI - https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/children-of-the-magenta-automation-paradox-pt-1/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/children-of-the-magen...

ryanmarsh 8y ago
This talk really opened my eyes to the quality of pilot training and effects of automation dependency. The fact that this was a problem in 1997 and that systems have gotten significantly more powerful and complex since then. Anyone interested in self driving cars should watch this too.

yread 8y ago

You might be right, but this case is not the best example. Here loss of AoA sensors led to plane trimming down when flying in manual mode. So, more manual flying worsened the situation here (because they may not have cutout the stab trim...)

tspike 8y ago

This is an interesting take, and one I'm surprised about given the recent increase in required flight time for an ATP (Air Transport Pilot) certificate from 250 hours to 1500 hours. I'm sure I'm misunderstanding, but wouldn't current up and coming pilots be more experienced to handle these types of situations given the additional hours needed?

contingencies 8y ago

Near where I am based in China there is a mandatory pilot training facility for one of the major airlines. Pilots must train for one week every year in the simulator. Once every month or two I run in to foreign pilots in town for this purpose. I met two recently and specifically asked them about the Lion Air event and their training for failures, based on the assumption that they must train for complete system failure. They said that in truth the probability of complete system failure is so low that completely manual training is now considered irrelevant to annual review and is not even performed. As an example, they said that the rudder of a typical plane has three redundant hydraulic systems, all of which are routed differently through the airframe and all of which would need to fail to lose control. In short, they have statistically more significant areas to train on, limited training time and budget, and it has been correspondingly deprioritized. This seems to be in direct contrast to boat sailing, where one of the most common and significant drills given to new sailors right across the world is learning to effectively steer a vessel using sail trim to compensate for a loss of rudder or rudder control.

plandis 8y ago

There is a semi-famous write up about this: http://www.bainbrdg.demon.co.uk/Papers/Ironies.html http://www.bainbrdg.demon.co.uk/Papers/Ironies.html