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You're certainly correct that the major problem is social, economic, and structural, but I do think there are some technologies that are inherently tricky to ju

You're certainly correct that the major problem is social, economic, and structural, but I do think there are some technologies that are inherently tricky to justify regardless of the economic structures they arise in. The atomic bomb is one obvious example of a technology that seems to be inherently bad not only for humanity, but for biological life itself. You could argue that the problem of the bomb is more-so a problem of finding a bad technical solution to the problem of war, but it's quite difficult to think of a beneficial application of the atomic bomb, and thus, very difficult to justify its invention from a moral/valued standpoint. I think it's also a problem that we seem to treat technological progress as a glorified end for humanity—we find it very difficult, for whatever reason (perhaps economic as you point out) to have the courage to admit when something shouldn't be invented, even if it presumably can be. I think part of this stems from the co-opting of science by technology, and science's silly claim to be "value-free" and neutral—which has had some disastrous consequences. If I'm engaged in a value-free enterprise, I have no reason to stop and wonder what devastation or havoc my creation might one day wreak, I'm doing it, after all, in the name of science, or progress, of unreflective pursuit of an end I can't forsee.

defterGoose 8y ago
"it's quite difficult to think of a beneficial application of the atomic bomb, and thus, very difficult to justify its invention from a moral/valued standpoint." Large, efficient explosives in space is an obvious one. We will need to crack open asteroids to mine them or blow one up so it doesn't collide with something eventually. I hope.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  > blow one up so it doesn't collide with something eventually. The one thing worse than a large asteroid heading for you is dozens of medium-sized ones and thousands of small ones all heading for you.
  - nafey 8y ago
    This is often repeated but I doubt if this is true. There will be more surface area exposed to the atmosphere for one. Notice that this falls apart if you end up dividing it in millions of smaller pieces
  - babuskov 8y ago
    It would probably be better to use the explosion to nudge its trajectory instead.
  - srtjstjsj 8y ago
    That's simply not true.
    - craftyguy 8y ago
      [citation needed]
rifung 8y ago
> The atomic bomb is one obvious example of a technology that seems to be inherently bad not only for humanity, but for biological life itself. Is it really inherently bad if it's just generating a lot of energy? Couldn't that technology be used to generate electricity?
- craftyguy 8y ago
  It could, but the primary reason it was developed was to generate a lot of energy to kill as many people as possible.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    Then be very careful to not extend the negativity over the entire field of nuclear physics. Atomic bomb is a very specific weapons technology. Mastery of fission and physics at atomic scale does great good already - from energy to medicine - and holds potential for even more.
    - craftyguy 8y ago
      > Then be very careful to not extend the negativity over the entire field of nuclear physics I never did, perhaps you are replying to the wrong person? I was just pointing out that creating the atomic bomb was a very negative thing. Even though other many other fields in nuclear physics came about because of the bomb's development, there's nothing that says they couldn't have come about without developing an atomic bomb in the first place.
jbob2000 8y ago
Arguably, the dropping of the atomic bombs saved more lives in the long run by forcing the Japanese to surrender and end the war, full-stop. And arguably, nuclear weapons are keeping the world at peace. Sure, everyone has them pointed at each other, but it’s that threat that keeps us honest and peaceful. Just like how drivers in Chicago are courteous and never honk their horn - you’ll get shot if you drive like a dick.
- jeremyjh 8y ago
  > Arguably, the dropping of the atomic bombs saved more lives in the long run by forcing the Japanese to surrender and end the war, full-stop. This was a popular myth that Truman started. In fact, if we’d told the Japanese we would let them keep their emperor, they almost certainly would have surrendered. The Soviets had just entered the war in the Pacific and we wanted to end it before they captured much territory. Ironic since the Japanese had no intention to risk a Soviet occupation either.
  - manfredo 8y ago
    This, in turn, is a popular myth often promulgated by apologists of the Empire of Japan (but also reiterated by others, I'm not saying you're among the former). The terms proposed by Japan during the latter period of the war included not only keeping the emperor, but also the existing government, immunity from war crimes trials, and keeping much of their colonial territory (namely, Korea). The Empire also planned to resist a speculated US and Soviet invasion as leverage to negotiate better peace terms. The expected Japanese casualties (that is, the Japanese military's own estimates) of this planned defense numbered in the tens of millions. The Japanese high command deemed this an acceptable number of casualties and went forward with the planned defense.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > In fact, if we’d told the Japanese we would let them keep their emperor, they almost certainly would have surrendered. The Soviets had just entered the war in the Pacific Er, no. The nuclear bombs were dropped on August 6 and August 9. The USSR announced it's declaration of war at 11pm Trans-Baikal time August 8, and began invasion at 12:01am August 9. So, at the commencement of the atomic bombing, the Soviets had not just entered the war. > and we wanted to end it before they captured much territory. So, what you are saying is that he Soviet entry into the war, absent the nuclear bombings, would put pressure on the US to grant Japan more lenient peace terms. Maybe that's true, but I'm not sure how that's an argument against the bombings.
TeMPOraL 8y ago
> You could argue that the problem of the bomb is more-so a problem of finding a bad technical solution to the problem of war, but it's quite difficult to think of a beneficial application of the atomic bomb, and thus, very difficult to justify its invention from a moral/valued standpoint. Well, we know why it was invented in the first place, so it's justification is based on what you think of the II World War, and United States' involvement in it. As for direct beneficial applications, those are after-the-fact, but two comes to mind: 1) Nuclear propulsion as currently the only feasible way we know of to move large masses through interplanetary space in reasonable timeframes. 2) Russians did some experiments with large-scale landscaping using nuclear bombs. Not sure what's the opinion of specialists in earth sciences, but it looks like a pretty useful tool to have.
- voidhorse 8y ago
  1.) As for the first point, propulsion is not the same as a bomb. Yes the mechanics are the same, but what this example points out to me is that the context and concept behind an invention is an important component of the invention itself. Most people would consider nuclear propulsion and a nuclear bomb to be entirely distinct inventions, even if the mechanics are the same. And indeed there are some mechanical/physical considerations that make the inventions distinct. Blast radius considerations, for instance, are entirely different if one is constructing a bomb (in which case they might be maximized instead of minimized, etc.) as are the considerations that go into constructing the container that will house the explosion/reaction. 2.) As for point 2, Look into the nuclear fallout in Kazakstan (for which the soviet tests are responsible). Unless there have been significant developments in controlling the effects of nuclear bombing technology and more recent tests (which there may have been, idk) I would hardly think anyone familiar with the environmental side effects from those experiments would recommend it as a good landscaping tool. One could make a similar rebuttal as the above to space applications based on the environmental impacts nuclear bombs have on earth. We don't know much (afaik) about the negative side effects using nuclear bombs in space could have, even if they're useful asteroid detonators. Radiation takes quite a long time to dissipate. This would be one reason for dissuading its use in terraforming activity, at least without extensive consideration and analysis.
albertgoeswoof 8y ago
The atomic bomb is a bad example- the reason we haven’t had ww3 is due to nuclear weapons. MAD basically means that no rational actor will fire a nuke at someone else who also has one, so we’re all paralysed and need to fight wars in other ways (the Cold War, proxy wars eg Syria, trade wars, cyber warfare, propaganda etc), all of which are less impactful than the world wars we would have without MAD
- voidhorse 8y ago
  But this is a counter factual argument and unsound. You don’t know we would have necessarily had more wars/ other world wars without deterrence theory kicking into effect. You’re also not accounting for the arguably inhumane weapons technologies that have been developed because of the deterrence situation, or that the bomb hasn’t prevented us from developing (eg, drones, and in some nations biological weapons). Furthermore, you’re really cheapening the lives of all of those who were victims to the bombs in Japan, and also diminishing the horrible humanitarian crises that have arisen out of the very proxy wars you’ve cited. Just because it has “prevented ww3” is not a very adequate or admirable reason to ignore the other negative effects that you yourself admit have been caused by the bomb. This is the fundamental weakness of utilitarianism, which turns human life into a commodity and effectively nothing more than a calculable value which is not a very dignified image of mankind. I’m open to arguments about the positive effects of the bomb, but not counter factual as that ignore the very real conditions of pain, war, and violence that are still occurring. The bomb’s effect as a deterrent being a positive thing is not very convincing—really the only thing it protects us from is the bomb itself, which wouldn’t be a problem had the bomb not been invented. Sure major economic powers are less gung-ho to engage in war directly but I’d argue the proxy wars they engage in now are more morally questionable then direct action against each other as they now use lesser developed countries as pawns of sorts, and the civilians and economies of those nations suffer while the big boys get to play an even “safer” (for them) little war game.

defterGoose 8y ago

"it's quite difficult to think of a beneficial application of the atomic bomb, and thus, very difficult to justify its invention from a moral/valued standpoint." Large, efficient explosives in space is an obvious one. We will need to crack open asteroids to mine them or blow one up so it doesn't collide with something eventually. I hope.

craftyguy 8y ago
> blow one up so it doesn't collide with something eventually. The one thing worse than a large asteroid heading for you is dozens of medium-sized ones and thousands of small ones all heading for you.
- nafey 8y ago
  This is often repeated but I doubt if this is true. There will be more surface area exposed to the atmosphere for one. Notice that this falls apart if you end up dividing it in millions of smaller pieces
- babuskov 8y ago
  It would probably be better to use the explosion to nudge its trajectory instead.
- srtjstjsj 8y ago
  That's simply not true.
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    [citation needed]

rifung 8y ago

> The atomic bomb is one obvious example of a technology that seems to be inherently bad not only for humanity, but for biological life itself. Is it really inherently bad if it's just generating a lot of energy? Couldn't that technology be used to generate electricity?

craftyguy 8y ago
It could, but the primary reason it was developed was to generate a lot of energy to kill as many people as possible.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  Then be very careful to not extend the negativity over the entire field of nuclear physics. Atomic bomb is a very specific weapons technology. Mastery of fission and physics at atomic scale does great good already - from energy to medicine - and holds potential for even more.
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    > Then be very careful to not extend the negativity over the entire field of nuclear physics I never did, perhaps you are replying to the wrong person? I was just pointing out that creating the atomic bomb was a very negative thing. Even though other many other fields in nuclear physics came about because of the bomb's development, there's nothing that says they couldn't have come about without developing an atomic bomb in the first place.

jbob2000 8y ago

Arguably, the dropping of the atomic bombs saved more lives in the long run by forcing the Japanese to surrender and end the war, full-stop. And arguably, nuclear weapons are keeping the world at peace. Sure, everyone has them pointed at each other, but it’s that threat that keeps us honest and peaceful. Just like how drivers in Chicago are courteous and never honk their horn - you’ll get shot if you drive like a dick.

jeremyjh 8y ago
> Arguably, the dropping of the atomic bombs saved more lives in the long run by forcing the Japanese to surrender and end the war, full-stop. This was a popular myth that Truman started. In fact, if we’d told the Japanese we would let them keep their emperor, they almost certainly would have surrendered. The Soviets had just entered the war in the Pacific and we wanted to end it before they captured much territory. Ironic since the Japanese had no intention to risk a Soviet occupation either.
- manfredo 8y ago
  This, in turn, is a popular myth often promulgated by apologists of the Empire of Japan (but also reiterated by others, I'm not saying you're among the former). The terms proposed by Japan during the latter period of the war included not only keeping the emperor, but also the existing government, immunity from war crimes trials, and keeping much of their colonial territory (namely, Korea). The Empire also planned to resist a speculated US and Soviet invasion as leverage to negotiate better peace terms. The expected Japanese casualties (that is, the Japanese military's own estimates) of this planned defense numbered in the tens of millions. The Japanese high command deemed this an acceptable number of casualties and went forward with the planned defense.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > In fact, if we’d told the Japanese we would let them keep their emperor, they almost certainly would have surrendered. The Soviets had just entered the war in the Pacific Er, no. The nuclear bombs were dropped on August 6 and August 9. The USSR announced it's declaration of war at 11pm Trans-Baikal time August 8, and began invasion at 12:01am August 9. So, at the commencement of the atomic bombing, the Soviets had not just entered the war. > and we wanted to end it before they captured much territory. So, what you are saying is that he Soviet entry into the war, absent the nuclear bombings, would put pressure on the US to grant Japan more lenient peace terms. Maybe that's true, but I'm not sure how that's an argument against the bombings.

TeMPOraL 8y ago

> You could argue that the problem of the bomb is more-so a problem of finding a bad technical solution to the problem of war, but it's quite difficult to think of a beneficial application of the atomic bomb, and thus, very difficult to justify its invention from a moral/valued standpoint. Well, we know why it was invented in the first place, so it's justification is based on what you think of the II World War, and United States' involvement in it. As for direct beneficial applications, those are after-the-fact, but two comes to mind: 1) Nuclear propulsion as currently the only feasible way we know of to move large masses through interplanetary space in reasonable timeframes. 2) Russians did some experiments with large-scale landscaping using nuclear bombs. Not sure what's the opinion of specialists in earth sciences, but it looks like a pretty useful tool to have.

voidhorse 8y ago
1.) As for the first point, propulsion is not the same as a bomb. Yes the mechanics are the same, but what this example points out to me is that the context and concept behind an invention is an important component of the invention itself. Most people would consider nuclear propulsion and a nuclear bomb to be entirely distinct inventions, even if the mechanics are the same. And indeed there are some mechanical/physical considerations that make the inventions distinct. Blast radius considerations, for instance, are entirely different if one is constructing a bomb (in which case they might be maximized instead of minimized, etc.) as are the considerations that go into constructing the container that will house the explosion/reaction. 2.) As for point 2, Look into the nuclear fallout in Kazakstan (for which the soviet tests are responsible). Unless there have been significant developments in controlling the effects of nuclear bombing technology and more recent tests (which there may have been, idk) I would hardly think anyone familiar with the environmental side effects from those experiments would recommend it as a good landscaping tool. One could make a similar rebuttal as the above to space applications based on the environmental impacts nuclear bombs have on earth. We don't know much (afaik) about the negative side effects using nuclear bombs in space could have, even if they're useful asteroid detonators. Radiation takes quite a long time to dissipate. This would be one reason for dissuading its use in terraforming activity, at least without extensive consideration and analysis.

albertgoeswoof 8y ago

The atomic bomb is a bad example- the reason we haven’t had ww3 is due to nuclear weapons. MAD basically means that no rational actor will fire a nuke at someone else who also has one, so we’re all paralysed and need to fight wars in other ways (the Cold War, proxy wars eg Syria, trade wars, cyber warfare, propaganda etc), all of which are less impactful than the world wars we would have without MAD

voidhorse 8y ago
But this is a counter factual argument and unsound. You don’t know we would have necessarily had more wars/ other world wars without deterrence theory kicking into effect. You’re also not accounting for the arguably inhumane weapons technologies that have been developed because of the deterrence situation, or that the bomb hasn’t prevented us from developing (eg, drones, and in some nations biological weapons). Furthermore, you’re really cheapening the lives of all of those who were victims to the bombs in Japan, and also diminishing the horrible humanitarian crises that have arisen out of the very proxy wars you’ve cited. Just because it has “prevented ww3” is not a very adequate or admirable reason to ignore the other negative effects that you yourself admit have been caused by the bomb. This is the fundamental weakness of utilitarianism, which turns human life into a commodity and effectively nothing more than a calculable value which is not a very dignified image of mankind. I’m open to arguments about the positive effects of the bomb, but not counter factual as that ignore the very real conditions of pain, war, and violence that are still occurring. The bomb’s effect as a deterrent being a positive thing is not very convincing—really the only thing it protects us from is the bomb itself, which wouldn’t be a problem had the bomb not been invented. Sure major economic powers are less gung-ho to engage in war directly but I’d argue the proxy wars they engage in now are more morally questionable then direct action against each other as they now use lesser developed countries as pawns of sorts, and the civilians and economies of those nations suffer while the big boys get to play an even “safer” (for them) little war game.