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I don't know. Sometimes it is hard to argue with results. The pace of Chinese technological capitalism is staggering. Perhaps it is just a race to the bottom wi

by wycs 8y ago

I don't know. Sometimes it is hard to argue with results. The pace of Chinese technological capitalism is staggering. Perhaps it is just a race to the bottom with working hours.

obmelvin 8y ago
There are a lot of factors besides the number of hours an individual works that effect their pace. Huge government support (including things like industrial espionage and technology transfer) and a huge number of citizens are much more important than having individuals work obscene hours.
- trash_panda 8y ago
  Agree, but I also read this as a little condescending towards Chinese workers. We tend to attribute their success to corruption, exploitation, or brute-force (given their population). But, could it be that they have something going for them? Maybe they are as capable as we are, as productive as we are, and also are putting the extra work. Don't get me wrong, I believe this is totally unhealthy for individuals. But it doesn't seem unreasonable for me that a highly capable and motivated individual would indeed produce more in 16 than in 8 hours, health and normal life aside.
  - xenihn 8y ago
    >Agree, but I also read this as a little condescending towards Chinese workers. You need to talk to Chinese tech employees who were formerly working/living in China and are now in the US. They will have nothing but bad things to say about the work culture in China, regarding both management and the employees under them, with plenty of examples / horror stories. Don't just take HN comments at their word, do a little work on your part and get some first-hand information so you can form a less biased opinion. Even better, go work in China for a bit :)
  - wycs 8y ago
    I think the Chinese are harder working and seemingly smarter if your trust their PISA scores. I don't think there is any measurable trait of the quality of human capital in which Chinese workers do worse than Americans.
  - obmelvin 8y ago
    I understand how you would read it that way, but I didn't mean any condensation towards Chinese workers. I was simply being lazy at showcasing other factors and picked the two easiest. > Maybe they are as capable as we are, as productive as we are, and also are putting the extra work. I 100% agree with this and don't think I suggested otherwise. My comment was in no way meant to take away from the incredible work of many people. I don't doubt that many people have worked long hours and absolutely think people are equally capable regardless of where they come from. I just think it is ridiculous to suggest that other economies should participate in a race to the bottom of who can work their citizens to death
- andyidsinga 8y ago
  it wasn't just internal factors - many companies/business people have wanted to do business with the Chinese. In my own experience they're pretty easy to work with.
neaden 8y ago
The economy exists for people, people do not exist for the economy.
- wycs 8y ago
  Though I agree with the normative claim behind what you are saying, it is not descriptive. The economy should exist for the people; it does not now. And making it do so will be very difficult, short of the invention of Culture style Minds. Imagine I said the following: "The ecosystem exists for the welfare of the animals." This would strike you as absurd. The economy exits because of people; it does not exist for people. In the limit of perfect competition, we should expect a race to the bottom, provided imperfect coordination.

by wycs 8y ago

I don't know. Sometimes it is hard to argue with results. The pace of Chinese technological capitalism is staggering. Perhaps it is just a race to the bottom with working hours.

obmelvin 8y ago

There are a lot of factors besides the number of hours an individual works that effect their pace. Huge government support (including things like industrial espionage and technology transfer) and a huge number of citizens are much more important than having individuals work obscene hours.

trash_panda 8y ago
Agree, but I also read this as a little condescending towards Chinese workers. We tend to attribute their success to corruption, exploitation, or brute-force (given their population). But, could it be that they have something going for them? Maybe they are as capable as we are, as productive as we are, and also are putting the extra work. Don't get me wrong, I believe this is totally unhealthy for individuals. But it doesn't seem unreasonable for me that a highly capable and motivated individual would indeed produce more in 16 than in 8 hours, health and normal life aside.
- xenihn 8y ago
  >Agree, but I also read this as a little condescending towards Chinese workers. You need to talk to Chinese tech employees who were formerly working/living in China and are now in the US. They will have nothing but bad things to say about the work culture in China, regarding both management and the employees under them, with plenty of examples / horror stories. Don't just take HN comments at their word, do a little work on your part and get some first-hand information so you can form a less biased opinion. Even better, go work in China for a bit :)
- wycs 8y ago
  I think the Chinese are harder working and seemingly smarter if your trust their PISA scores. I don't think there is any measurable trait of the quality of human capital in which Chinese workers do worse than Americans.
- obmelvin 8y ago
  I understand how you would read it that way, but I didn't mean any condensation towards Chinese workers. I was simply being lazy at showcasing other factors and picked the two easiest. > Maybe they are as capable as we are, as productive as we are, and also are putting the extra work. I 100% agree with this and don't think I suggested otherwise. My comment was in no way meant to take away from the incredible work of many people. I don't doubt that many people have worked long hours and absolutely think people are equally capable regardless of where they come from. I just think it is ridiculous to suggest that other economies should participate in a race to the bottom of who can work their citizens to death
andyidsinga 8y ago
it wasn't just internal factors - many companies/business people have wanted to do business with the Chinese. In my own experience they're pretty easy to work with.

neaden 8y ago

The economy exists for people, people do not exist for the economy.

wycs 8y ago
Though I agree with the normative claim behind what you are saying, it is not descriptive. The economy should exist for the people; it does not now. And making it do so will be very difficult, short of the invention of Culture style Minds. Imagine I said the following: "The ecosystem exists for the welfare of the animals." This would strike you as absurd. The economy exits because of people; it does not exist for people. In the limit of perfect competition, we should expect a race to the bottom, provided imperfect coordination.