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> One Chinese technology executive said he worked 14 to 15 hours a day at least six days a week. Another said he worked every waking hour and forced himself to

> One Chinese technology executive said he worked 14 to 15 hours a day at least six days a week. Another said he worked every waking hour and forced himself to watch movies to relax. > The reaction from a group of Silicon Valley executives: Wow. > “We’re so lazy in the U.S.!” blurted Wesley Chan, a venture capital investor, on the first day of what would be a weeklong journey into the Chinese technology scene. Uh, how about not. That is the complete wrong response to that. I understand Wesley might have just been trying to lighten the mood or be nice but let's not encourage working yourself to death.

tommoor 8y ago
I think this is why the author chose "blurted", clearly this was not a thought out response
izzydata 8y ago
Considering how little work people actually do at work we should be pushing for a 4 day work week instead.
- wycs 8y ago
  Much of the value is standby time. Even if workers are doing very little most of the day, the fact that you can spin up a worker instantly (between 9 and 9) in China can make their companies extremely efficient.
  - sremani 8y ago
    Depends on what kind of work, if you are front-line developer the value of work is different from that of an executive. Executive game has more perception elements to it, in such the style is as much important as substance. Its has little or no similarities with the deep work needed from most of the knowledge workers.
    - DAaaMan64 8y ago
      I think I now what you're saying, but can you please ELI5?
    - camelCaseOfBeer 8y ago
      As so often brevity is the soul of wit, your comment is perfectly captured by this comic, published in the New Yorker. https://condenaststore.com/featured/i-get-up-impressively-early-too-tom-chitty.html https://condenaststore.com/featured/i-get-up-impressively-ea...
- bitL 8y ago
  Yeah, but how would you make managers feel important with the illusion of having control if they couldn't extend the time spent on their subordinates? Imagine the horror if an employee could do whatever they want for 3 unsupervised days in a row!
- camelCaseOfBeer 8y ago
  I know, right? I have like... 6 hours of focused programming in me TOPS. Even then, I'd need something I find personally compelling. What comes from those other 2 hours? Bugs... Mostly bugs... And fixing bugs I made when I was tired. Also writing HN comments while I poop on the clock. Yeah... Seems to me if an employer wanted to spend money more efficiently they should opt for the 6hr dev shifts. Engineers work on their own time. I don't get paid for the hour or two a day I spend on what biz people call, "professional development" but it benefits my employer. I guess it balances out, but I think I'd ultimately be a lot happier and productive if I got those two hours with my family every day instead of sitting on the toilet until my feet go numb. I mean who innovates, anyway? The punch-clock employees, worked to the bone? No. It's people working toward furthering their own goals and aspirations. How is it we understand so clearly what all these MBAs seem to have missed. Aren't they supposed to be the empathetic, "big picture" types?
wycs 8y ago
I don't know. Sometimes it is hard to argue with results. The pace of Chinese technological capitalism is staggering. Perhaps it is just a race to the bottom with working hours.
- obmelvin 8y ago
  There are a lot of factors besides the number of hours an individual works that effect their pace. Huge government support (including things like industrial espionage and technology transfer) and a huge number of citizens are much more important than having individuals work obscene hours.
  - trash_panda 8y ago
    Agree, but I also read this as a little condescending towards Chinese workers. We tend to attribute their success to corruption, exploitation, or brute-force (given their population). But, could it be that they have something going for them? Maybe they are as capable as we are, as productive as we are, and also are putting the extra work. Don't get me wrong, I believe this is totally unhealthy for individuals. But it doesn't seem unreasonable for me that a highly capable and motivated individual would indeed produce more in 16 than in 8 hours, health and normal life aside.
    - xenihn 8y ago
      >Agree, but I also read this as a little condescending towards Chinese workers. You need to talk to Chinese tech employees who were formerly working/living in China and are now in the US. They will have nothing but bad things to say about the work culture in China, regarding both management and the employees under them, with plenty of examples / horror stories. Don't just take HN comments at their word, do a little work on your part and get some first-hand information so you can form a less biased opinion. Even better, go work in China for a bit :)
    - wycs 8y ago
      I think the Chinese are harder working and seemingly smarter if your trust their PISA scores. I don't think there is any measurable trait of the quality of human capital in which Chinese workers do worse than Americans.
matz1 8y ago
If I were a venture capital investor, I probably would say the same thing. My worker mork more -> more money for me.
- kamarg 8y ago
  Of course that only works if you're making widgets. More time working doesn't actually correlate to a successful business. At some point exhaustion sets in and you start making mistakes or making flat out wrong decisions and this leads to failed companies. Failed companies don't tend to provide returns to investors.
jasode 8y ago
>That is the complete wrong response to that. I understand Wesley might have just been trying to lighten the mood No, he's a VC so he's probably 100% serious. VC's aren't going to fund founders who think they can build a successful business by limiting themselves 8-to-5 and 40 hours a week. Another famous VC Mike Moritz of Sequoia Capital expressed the same praise about working hard like the Chinese.[1] Famous seed investor Ron Conway has said similar qualifications of a founder. ("Well I mean are you willing to work 24/7? The really great entrepreneurs are 24/7.")[2] Likewise, if you're an entrepreneur that prioritizes the principle of "work/life balance" and 40-hours-a-week, VCs are not the right investor for you. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=moritz+chinese+work+long+hours https://www.google.com/search?q=moritz+chinese+work+long+hou... [2] https://youtu.be/qvHhhIfu7Lo?t=4m20s https://youtu.be/qvHhhIfu7Lo?t=4m20s
- arethuza 8y ago
  I think it's a bit of a false dichotomy to say that the options are 40 hours or 24/7. And if they don't literally mean "24/7" then why say it? Edit: In fact, I can't think of any way to destroy productivity than attempting to work 24 hours a day for any length of time.
  - Varcht 8y ago
    Why is literalism becoming such a thing? I would think that with the advance of AI we would want to hold our edge and embrace our fuzzier linguistics.
  - liveoneggs 8y ago
    no money for you!
    - arethuza 8y ago
      If it comes at the cost of forcing myself to work 24/7, or even worse, making other work ridiculous hours at the cost of their health then yeah - no money for me. One round through the startup/VC/IPO/acquisition world was enough for me - I like building stuff too much.
gedy 8y ago
> worked 14 to 15 hours a day at least six days a week That's not the same definition for "work" though, and basically a lot of office time socializing, and watching over people, etc. I doubt that is 2x productivity from 9-5 M-F
geebee 8y ago
This data set suggests that workers in the US put in long hours. I’m on my phone and it isn’t sorted, doesn’t have China in there either. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_average_annual_labor_hours_in_OECD_countries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_average_annual_labor... I suppose when you’re a superpower up against the other superpowers, then maybe how you stack up against prosperous small republics with small armies and a high standard of living isn’t the point though.
- Swizec 8y ago
  Americans put in long hours but they don’t work hard. Most of it is posturing and staying in the office longer than your boss even if you spend half the time chatting away on slack. Some work hard of course. Nobody puts in ling hard hours. You can either work hard or work long. They are mutually exclusive. Such is life. You put in the type of work your boss appreciates. That said: you can always squeeze in another email or another meeting. Manager mode thrives under long hours. Try to squeeze in another hour of creating and you just spend 2 hours fixing it tomorrow.
  - Konnstann 8y ago
    Americans working white-collar jobs may not work both long and hard, but people working 2+ manual labor jobs sure do.
    - Swizec 8y ago
      You are correct. I was talking about the white collar bubble, which seems reasonable since we're talking in the VC-funded ecosystem. Do VCs often fund companies that are full of people working 2+ manual labor jobs?
      - jpatokal 8y ago
        People looking for a second manual labor job are the mainstay of the gig economy (Uber, Airtasker, etc).
      - 8y ago
heroyanglives 8y ago
You are weak.
- sctb 8y ago
  We've banned this account, of course.
Florin_Andrei 8y ago
> let's not encourage working yourself to death But if the system's only optimization criterion is the bottom line, then this is the expected outcome.

tommoor 8y ago

I think this is why the author chose "blurted", clearly this was not a thought out response

izzydata 8y ago

Considering how little work people actually do at work we should be pushing for a 4 day work week instead.

wycs 8y ago
Much of the value is standby time. Even if workers are doing very little most of the day, the fact that you can spin up a worker instantly (between 9 and 9) in China can make their companies extremely efficient.
- sremani 8y ago
  Depends on what kind of work, if you are front-line developer the value of work is different from that of an executive. Executive game has more perception elements to it, in such the style is as much important as substance. Its has little or no similarities with the deep work needed from most of the knowledge workers.
  - DAaaMan64 8y ago
    I think I now what you're saying, but can you please ELI5?
  - camelCaseOfBeer 8y ago
    As so often brevity is the soul of wit, your comment is perfectly captured by this comic, published in the New Yorker. https://condenaststore.com/featured/i-get-up-impressively-early-too-tom-chitty.html https://condenaststore.com/featured/i-get-up-impressively-ea...
bitL 8y ago
Yeah, but how would you make managers feel important with the illusion of having control if they couldn't extend the time spent on their subordinates? Imagine the horror if an employee could do whatever they want for 3 unsupervised days in a row!
camelCaseOfBeer 8y ago
I know, right? I have like... 6 hours of focused programming in me TOPS. Even then, I'd need something I find personally compelling. What comes from those other 2 hours? Bugs... Mostly bugs... And fixing bugs I made when I was tired. Also writing HN comments while I poop on the clock. Yeah... Seems to me if an employer wanted to spend money more efficiently they should opt for the 6hr dev shifts. Engineers work on their own time. I don't get paid for the hour or two a day I spend on what biz people call, "professional development" but it benefits my employer. I guess it balances out, but I think I'd ultimately be a lot happier and productive if I got those two hours with my family every day instead of sitting on the toilet until my feet go numb. I mean who innovates, anyway? The punch-clock employees, worked to the bone? No. It's people working toward furthering their own goals and aspirations. How is it we understand so clearly what all these MBAs seem to have missed. Aren't they supposed to be the empathetic, "big picture" types?

wycs 8y ago

I don't know. Sometimes it is hard to argue with results. The pace of Chinese technological capitalism is staggering. Perhaps it is just a race to the bottom with working hours.

obmelvin 8y ago
There are a lot of factors besides the number of hours an individual works that effect their pace. Huge government support (including things like industrial espionage and technology transfer) and a huge number of citizens are much more important than having individuals work obscene hours.
- trash_panda 8y ago
  Agree, but I also read this as a little condescending towards Chinese workers. We tend to attribute their success to corruption, exploitation, or brute-force (given their population). But, could it be that they have something going for them? Maybe they are as capable as we are, as productive as we are, and also are putting the extra work. Don't get me wrong, I believe this is totally unhealthy for individuals. But it doesn't seem unreasonable for me that a highly capable and motivated individual would indeed produce more in 16 than in 8 hours, health and normal life aside.
  - xenihn 8y ago
    >Agree, but I also read this as a little condescending towards Chinese workers. You need to talk to Chinese tech employees who were formerly working/living in China and are now in the US. They will have nothing but bad things to say about the work culture in China, regarding both management and the employees under them, with plenty of examples / horror stories. Don't just take HN comments at their word, do a little work on your part and get some first-hand information so you can form a less biased opinion. Even better, go work in China for a bit :)
  - wycs 8y ago
    I think the Chinese are harder working and seemingly smarter if your trust their PISA scores. I don't think there is any measurable trait of the quality of human capital in which Chinese workers do worse than Americans.

matz1 8y ago

If I were a venture capital investor, I probably would say the same thing. My worker mork more -> more money for me.

kamarg 8y ago
Of course that only works if you're making widgets. More time working doesn't actually correlate to a successful business. At some point exhaustion sets in and you start making mistakes or making flat out wrong decisions and this leads to failed companies. Failed companies don't tend to provide returns to investors.

jasode 8y ago

>That is the complete wrong response to that. I understand Wesley might have just been trying to lighten the mood No, he's a VC so he's probably 100% serious. VC's aren't going to fund founders who think they can build a successful business by limiting themselves 8-to-5 and 40 hours a week. Another famous VC Mike Moritz of Sequoia Capital expressed the same praise about working hard like the Chinese.[1] Famous seed investor Ron Conway has said similar qualifications of a founder. ("Well I mean are you willing to work 24/7? The really great entrepreneurs are 24/7.")[2] Likewise, if you're an entrepreneur that prioritizes the principle of "work/life balance" and 40-hours-a-week, VCs are not the right investor for you. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=moritz+chinese+work+long+hours https://www.google.com/search?q=moritz+chinese+work+long+hou... [2] https://youtu.be/qvHhhIfu7Lo?t=4m20s https://youtu.be/qvHhhIfu7Lo?t=4m20s

arethuza 8y ago
I think it's a bit of a false dichotomy to say that the options are 40 hours or 24/7. And if they don't literally mean "24/7" then why say it? Edit: In fact, I can't think of any way to destroy productivity than attempting to work 24 hours a day for any length of time.
- Varcht 8y ago
  Why is literalism becoming such a thing? I would think that with the advance of AI we would want to hold our edge and embrace our fuzzier linguistics.
- liveoneggs 8y ago
  no money for you!
  - arethuza 8y ago
    If it comes at the cost of forcing myself to work 24/7, or even worse, making other work ridiculous hours at the cost of their health then yeah - no money for me. One round through the startup/VC/IPO/acquisition world was enough for me - I like building stuff too much.

gedy 8y ago

> worked 14 to 15 hours a day at least six days a week That's not the same definition for "work" though, and basically a lot of office time socializing, and watching over people, etc. I doubt that is 2x productivity from 9-5 M-F

geebee 8y ago

This data set suggests that workers in the US put in long hours. I’m on my phone and it isn’t sorted, doesn’t have China in there either. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_average_annual_labor_hours_in_OECD_countries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_average_annual_labor... I suppose when you’re a superpower up against the other superpowers, then maybe how you stack up against prosperous small republics with small armies and a high standard of living isn’t the point though.

Swizec 8y ago
Americans put in long hours but they don’t work hard. Most of it is posturing and staying in the office longer than your boss even if you spend half the time chatting away on slack. Some work hard of course. Nobody puts in ling hard hours. You can either work hard or work long. They are mutually exclusive. Such is life. You put in the type of work your boss appreciates. That said: you can always squeeze in another email or another meeting. Manager mode thrives under long hours. Try to squeeze in another hour of creating and you just spend 2 hours fixing it tomorrow.
- Konnstann 8y ago
  Americans working white-collar jobs may not work both long and hard, but people working 2+ manual labor jobs sure do.
  - Swizec 8y ago
    You are correct. I was talking about the white collar bubble, which seems reasonable since we're talking in the VC-funded ecosystem. Do VCs often fund companies that are full of people working 2+ manual labor jobs?
    - jpatokal 8y ago
      People looking for a second manual labor job are the mainstay of the gig economy (Uber, Airtasker, etc).
    - 8y ago

heroyanglives 8y ago

You are weak.

sctb 8y ago
We've banned this account, of course.

Florin_Andrei 8y ago

> let's not encourage working yourself to death But if the system's only optimization criterion is the bottom line, then this is the expected outcome.