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This, in my opinion, is why frameworks of any ilk exist at all. Too many developers out there don't want to take the time to learn the language and the framewo

This, in my opinion, is why frameworks of any ilk exist at all. Too many developers out there don't want to take the time to learn the language and the frameworks give them a (false, again, my opinion) sense of productivity. But, especially with CSS, I really don't see the value provided by a framework. CSS isn't hard to learn or master! And as OP suggested, doing so means you get more done with less code. I know a guy who set up a project with a framework. He had a nice scaffold of the project and was amazed and overjoyed with what he had done with so little effort until it was pointed out to him that he had 40,000 files in a project that didn't actually do anything. Much less solve the customers problem.

wild_preference 8y ago
Frameworks aren't at odds with knowing CSS or any other language. You're missing the point with "CSS isn't hard!" And you're wrong. CSS is incredibly hard to maintain. It easily becomes an append-only list of rules. Medium.com for example hired a team a CSS developers including a co-creator of Bootstrap just to work full-time on its CSS. This is a good example of developer hubris and the HN trope of "it isn't that hard, why don't other idiot devs just do <X>? It must be because they're incompetent." I'm not convinced you've drunk your own Kool-aid in production on a non-trivial project. Because then the trade-offs would be obvious to you and you wouldn't think one is better.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  I think I fall somewhere between the two extremes you guys represent. It's not hard and it's not easy. Also, some developers are developers because they wanted to GTFO of some situation and don't give two shits about personal development, best practices, efficiency, long term maintenance, or any else. They're just showing up for a paycheck. Ideally you want to avoid those developers but realistically you don't always have a choice because not everyone who is passionate about software can work for Goopplebooksoft.
thomasz 8y ago
CSS is incredibly hard to learn and master. Everything is extremely unintuitive and subjected to subtle inconsistencies between browsers and browser versions. It’s just that we’ve been living with this insanity for so long that we fail to see it for what it is.

wild_preference 8y ago

Frameworks aren't at odds with knowing CSS or any other language. You're missing the point with "CSS isn't hard!" And you're wrong. CSS is incredibly hard to maintain. It easily becomes an append-only list of rules. Medium.com for example hired a team a CSS developers including a co-creator of Bootstrap just to work full-time on its CSS. This is a good example of developer hubris and the HN trope of "it isn't that hard, why don't other idiot devs just do <X>? It must be because they're incompetent." I'm not convinced you've drunk your own Kool-aid in production on a non-trivial project. Because then the trade-offs would be obvious to you and you wouldn't think one is better.

cptskippy 8y ago
I think I fall somewhere between the two extremes you guys represent. It's not hard and it's not easy. Also, some developers are developers because they wanted to GTFO of some situation and don't give two shits about personal development, best practices, efficiency, long term maintenance, or any else. They're just showing up for a paycheck. Ideally you want to avoid those developers but realistically you don't always have a choice because not everyone who is passionate about software can work for Goopplebooksoft.

thomasz 8y ago

CSS is incredibly hard to learn and master. Everything is extremely unintuitive and subjected to subtle inconsistencies between browsers and browser versions. It’s just that we’ve been living with this insanity for so long that we fail to see it for what it is.