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Battery packs for EVs are expensive and heavy. And more complicated than people realise. They're not just big batteries. Making an electric car with decent rang

Battery packs for EVs are expensive and heavy. And more complicated than people realise. They're not just big batteries. Making an electric car with decent range at an affordable price* is not easy at all. Tesla is closer than anyone else. * edit: an affordable price that isn't loss-making, I should say

rootusrootus 8y ago
Both Chevy and Hyundai have decent range EVs that are significantly less expensive than a Tesla, so it seems like it's not a problem only Tesla knows the answer to.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  The Bolt at 238 miles is still quite a bit under the Tesla which can reach 300+. But at half the cost, its a price point that will suit many folks.
  - rootusrootus 8y ago
    Only because Chevy doesn't offer an LR upgrade for the Bolt. Otherwise it seems like it has more range than a 220-mile Model 3?
- codeulike 8y ago
  The Chevvy bolt is sold at an $8000 loss. The Hyundai Kona Electric looks cool but is only going to be sold in small numbers and won't be available in much of the USA https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-limited-u-s-availability/ https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-limited-u-s-avai... I wonder why.
  - Retric 8y ago
    Not only are they losing money, it also starts at $36,620 which is more than the Tesla 3 base model and it’s tiny. Bolt: 164″ L x 70″ W Model 3: 185″ L x 73″ W Which is not nessisarily a bad thing for a city car.
    - falcolas 8y ago
      The Tesla 3 base model is not in production right now. Only the higher priced models are. I'm sure they'll eventually get to it, but you're comparing a model that is available to buy today with one which is not.
      - Retric 8y ago
        Sure, in practice you can even get a 2019 Bolt for 9k under MSRP becase nobody wants them. https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/747922437/overview/ https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/747922437/overview... Tesla may or may not start base model production in Q1 2019, but availability is not really helping the Bolt sell.
        falcolas 8y ago
        Cars almost always sell under MSRP - because there's a middleman involved. For example: https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/750619576/overview/ https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/750619576/overview... "Nobody wants one" is also hyperbolic - Chevy releases sale numbers, and while not top-of-the-line, they're also not 0.
        Retric 8y ago
        Depends on the car and when you buy it. Some high demand cars sell over MSRP. Seeing deep discounts at the end of a model year is common when trying to shift inventory or when dealing with very high margin trim levels. Advertising 26% under MSRP for a base 2019 model in 2018 is a rather extreme case. PS: For some actual numbers: GM delivered 3,949 Bolt EVs during the last three months in the US from 6,710 units during the same period last year. In automotive sales terms that's very close to zero. https://electrek.co/2018/10/03/chevy-bolt-ev-sales-slumping-us/ https://electrek.co/2018/10/03/chevy-bolt-ev-sales-slumping-...
    - kurthr 8y ago
      And when you add in the $8k loss, they are the same price as the profitable Model 3 you can buy today (not even the base model).
  - rootusrootus 8y ago
    I'm more concerned with what's available on the market, not whether or not it sells in enough quantity to offset R&D, etc. Tesla had it's first profitable quarter in what, 15 years? It might be premature to move the goalposts ;-). The fact remains that both Chevy (or LG) and Hyundai clearly know how to make a battery that competes on price. Tesla doesn't have any magic technology, what they have is good marketing. They have a plausible shot at replacing BMW as the image car of choice for folks in the lower premium car range, which seems fairly lucrative. Not a bad niche to be in.
    - codeulike 8y ago
      Chevy (or LG) and Hyundai clearly know how to make a battery that competes on price. No, they don't. That's my point. They've made long range EVs that they are selling at a loss, or only in small numbers which implies either loss-making or supply-chain problems. Tesla doesn't have any magic technology Thats not clear. Look at the recently announced Audi and Mercedes EV efforts (and the Jag i-Pace) and see how they compare with Tesla in terms of battery size, weight and efficiency. Sandy Munro says the Model 3 is at least 4 years ahead of anything else. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2018-10-25/why-tesla-s-big-deal-model-3-puts-it-years-ahead-of-competition-video https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2018-10-25/why-tesla-s...
mdasen 8y ago
I can go to a dealer today and grab a Chevy Bolt for under $32k with no haggling with 238 mile range. Hyundai hasn't come out with US pricing for their Kona EV yet, but in Norway they're selling it for the equivalent of $40k with 258 mile range. It certainly isn't trivial and Tesla has invested a good bit in EV technology, but it looks like rivals aren't that far behind.
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rootusrootus 8y ago

Both Chevy and Hyundai have decent range EVs that are significantly less expensive than a Tesla, so it seems like it's not a problem only Tesla knows the answer to.

JoeAltmaier 8y ago
The Bolt at 238 miles is still quite a bit under the Tesla which can reach 300+. But at half the cost, its a price point that will suit many folks.
- rootusrootus 8y ago
  Only because Chevy doesn't offer an LR upgrade for the Bolt. Otherwise it seems like it has more range than a 220-mile Model 3?
codeulike 8y ago
The Chevvy bolt is sold at an $8000 loss. The Hyundai Kona Electric looks cool but is only going to be sold in small numbers and won't be available in much of the USA https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-limited-u-s-availability/ https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-limited-u-s-avai... I wonder why.
- Retric 8y ago
  Not only are they losing money, it also starts at $36,620 which is more than the Tesla 3 base model and it’s tiny. Bolt: 164″ L x 70″ W Model 3: 185″ L x 73″ W Which is not nessisarily a bad thing for a city car.
  - falcolas 8y ago
    The Tesla 3 base model is not in production right now. Only the higher priced models are. I'm sure they'll eventually get to it, but you're comparing a model that is available to buy today with one which is not.
    - Retric 8y ago
      Sure, in practice you can even get a 2019 Bolt for 9k under MSRP becase nobody wants them. https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/747922437/overview/ https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/747922437/overview... Tesla may or may not start base model production in Q1 2019, but availability is not really helping the Bolt sell.
      - falcolas 8y ago
        Cars almost always sell under MSRP - because there's a middleman involved. For example: https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/750619576/overview/ https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/750619576/overview... "Nobody wants one" is also hyperbolic - Chevy releases sale numbers, and while not top-of-the-line, they're also not 0.
        Retric 8y ago
        Depends on the car and when you buy it. Some high demand cars sell over MSRP. Seeing deep discounts at the end of a model year is common when trying to shift inventory or when dealing with very high margin trim levels. Advertising 26% under MSRP for a base 2019 model in 2018 is a rather extreme case. PS: For some actual numbers: GM delivered 3,949 Bolt EVs during the last three months in the US from 6,710 units during the same period last year. In automotive sales terms that's very close to zero. https://electrek.co/2018/10/03/chevy-bolt-ev-sales-slumping-us/ https://electrek.co/2018/10/03/chevy-bolt-ev-sales-slumping-...
  - kurthr 8y ago
    And when you add in the $8k loss, they are the same price as the profitable Model 3 you can buy today (not even the base model).
- rootusrootus 8y ago
  I'm more concerned with what's available on the market, not whether or not it sells in enough quantity to offset R&D, etc. Tesla had it's first profitable quarter in what, 15 years? It might be premature to move the goalposts ;-). The fact remains that both Chevy (or LG) and Hyundai clearly know how to make a battery that competes on price. Tesla doesn't have any magic technology, what they have is good marketing. They have a plausible shot at replacing BMW as the image car of choice for folks in the lower premium car range, which seems fairly lucrative. Not a bad niche to be in.
  - codeulike 8y ago
    Chevy (or LG) and Hyundai clearly know how to make a battery that competes on price. No, they don't. That's my point. They've made long range EVs that they are selling at a loss, or only in small numbers which implies either loss-making or supply-chain problems. Tesla doesn't have any magic technology Thats not clear. Look at the recently announced Audi and Mercedes EV efforts (and the Jag i-Pace) and see how they compare with Tesla in terms of battery size, weight and efficiency. Sandy Munro says the Model 3 is at least 4 years ahead of anything else. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2018-10-25/why-tesla-s-big-deal-model-3-puts-it-years-ahead-of-competition-video https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2018-10-25/why-tesla-s...

mdasen 8y ago

I can go to a dealer today and grab a Chevy Bolt for under $32k with no haggling with 238 mile range. Hyundai hasn't come out with US pricing for their Kona EV yet, but in Norway they're selling it for the equivalent of $40k with 258 mile range. It certainly isn't trivial and Tesla has invested a good bit in EV technology, but it looks like rivals aren't that far behind.

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