7 ms·

There are two opportunities that arise from reading literature from outside of your own culture and time. One is to have that revelation of "oh, wow, these fol

There are two opportunities that arise from reading literature from outside of your own culture and time. One is to have that revelation of "oh, wow, these folks are just like me!" The other is to have the revelation, "wow, these folks are nothing like me, and here's what they felt was important, beautiful, terrifying, etc" Both are pretty important, even if the latter doesn't come as naturally. You'll never be completely empathetic to it, but at least you can learn to be sympathetic.

ForHackernews 8y ago
I guess that's true, but IMHO Beowulf tells you nothing about what those ancient people felt. Not a single one of the characters has any inner life or motivation, it's just a chronicle of monster-slaying. You might as well read a poorly written comic book.
- jack6e 8y ago
  What? This is entirely untrue, and I feel bad that you had a teacher or reading experience that did not focus on how much inner life, motivation, and emotion are in this poem. I have had the exact opposite experience: people think of Beowulf as a monster-fighting action poem and are disappointed or surprised when they read it and discover most of the content is songs, conversation, historical reminiscences, and not-fighting. Take as just one brief example these passages from XXXIV lines 52-7 and XXXV lines 5-7 [0]: So to hoar-headed hero ’tis heavily crushing To live to see his son as he rideth Young on the gallows: then measures he chanteth, A song of sorrow, when his son is hanging For the raven’s delight, and aged and hoary He is unable to offer any assistance. Every morning his offspring’s departure Is constant recalled ... So the helm of the Weders Hrethel grieves for Herebald. Mindful of Herebald heart-sorrow carried, Stirred with emotion, nowise was able To wreak his ruin on the ruthless destroyer This is a description of an experience almost (but not totally) unknown in modern American/western culture. To dmreedy's point, this captures the duality that on the one hand, these were humans just like us, and fathers who have lost sons violently in war or crime who are weighed down with the burden of that grief and the inability to do anything, to take any vengeance, can probably identify with this ancient father. These words can be a foil that gives voice to their own hearts. On the other hand, we can consider how different Anglo-Saxon society was by looking at the culture of vengeance and reciprocal warfare that resulted in this son's death. Very few of us even experience war, much less can imagine a life in which we expect every spring/summer to be attacked by, or to go out and attack, some neighboring city. What forces shaped society to develop those systems? How can we prevent returning to that? What was good about life then - what did the people enjoy, and what was evil? These are all questions that are worth asking and trying to answer. But we only get to explore those questions if we approach these texts, as the article's author states, as texts with presence in time and place, creations of real people from a certain time, encoding their particular moment with all its similarities and differences to ours. Lastly, it does sound better in Old English [1]. [0] https://www.gutenberg.org/files/16328/16328-h/16328-h.htm#XXXIV https://www.gutenberg.org/files/16328/16328-h/16328-h.htm#XX... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROghKY1jmuE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROghKY1jmuE (edit for formatting)
  - ForHackernews 8y ago
    Maybe I'm not explaining myself well -- the passages you've quoted above do tell us in very poetic language that some character is sad that their sons died in battle, but they don't show that, really. As a reader, we have no access to their interior mental state, we just get the narrator's report that Herebald carries "heart-sorrow" (great word!). Something like this article might explain the distinction I'm not articulating correctly: http://nautil.us/issue/65/in-plain-sight/why-doesnt-ancient-fiction-talk-about-feelings-rp http://nautil.us/issue/65/in-plain-sight/why-doesnt-ancient-...
zandl 8y ago
This is what I find fascinating about the annals of Lü Buwei (239bc Qin Dynasty), in that he brought together the best philosophers of the time to create a book of all the knowledge, arts, sciences, food, almanacs and state leadership for future generations. Some of his leadership advice I actually haven’t seen elsewhere and learned from. So exactly what he had in mind after over 2200 years ago. I think the other thing one realizes with history is how much makes up the present, it’s part of our cultures today. We didn’t invent ideas of equality, women and animal rights, Aristotle references ancient states with these ideals — notably he mentions them as vulnerable to demagogues. Almond milk was used as a milk substitute in medieval French cooking since it’s easier to use. I feel we’re dismisive of previous generations and think of our selves as better when really nothing has changed outside of technology and our physical sciences.
- chimprich 8y ago
  > Some of his leadership advice I actually haven’t seen elsewhere and learned from. Intriguing, could you give us a flavour?
  - zandl 8y ago
    One example, the leader of a state shouldn’t be doing anything since this biases their judgment, instead they should always rely on their ministers to be experts, and the fewer decisions one makes the more ideal the leader. It’s not just simple delegation that they’re talking about, it’s that at least on person has to have a clear view of the whole picture to make subtle adjustments, and if the leader is wrapped up in doing the work himself then it’s no longer possible. They have very strong words for leaders who do work themselves as being unfit and bluntly stupid. It certainly resonated for me as being completely correct, and adjusted my management style.
    - lostconfused 8y ago
      Ah that sounds pretty much the same type of management philosophy as espoused in "Clouds Above The Hill" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saka_no_Ue_no_Kumo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saka_no_Ue_no_Kumo The author attributes the successes of early Imperial Japanese Navy to the men in leadership roles being wise enough to focus on enabling their competent subordinates do their jobs and nothing more. At least a lot early 2nd volume is spent on organization and management structure. Japan spent a lot of time studying Chinese culture so it would make sense that they would addopt similar ideas. This article https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/07/22/the-talent-myth https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/07/22/the-talent-myt... claims this "loose tight" for of leadership is responsible for collapse of Enron.

ForHackernews 8y ago

I guess that's true, but IMHO Beowulf tells you nothing about what those ancient people felt. Not a single one of the characters has any inner life or motivation, it's just a chronicle of monster-slaying. You might as well read a poorly written comic book.

jack6e 8y ago
What? This is entirely untrue, and I feel bad that you had a teacher or reading experience that did not focus on how much inner life, motivation, and emotion are in this poem. I have had the exact opposite experience: people think of Beowulf as a monster-fighting action poem and are disappointed or surprised when they read it and discover most of the content is songs, conversation, historical reminiscences, and not-fighting. Take as just one brief example these passages from XXXIV lines 52-7 and XXXV lines 5-7 [0]: So to hoar-headed hero ’tis heavily crushing To live to see his son as he rideth Young on the gallows: then measures he chanteth, A song of sorrow, when his son is hanging For the raven’s delight, and aged and hoary He is unable to offer any assistance. Every morning his offspring’s departure Is constant recalled ... So the helm of the Weders Hrethel grieves for Herebald. Mindful of Herebald heart-sorrow carried, Stirred with emotion, nowise was able To wreak his ruin on the ruthless destroyer This is a description of an experience almost (but not totally) unknown in modern American/western culture. To dmreedy's point, this captures the duality that on the one hand, these were humans just like us, and fathers who have lost sons violently in war or crime who are weighed down with the burden of that grief and the inability to do anything, to take any vengeance, can probably identify with this ancient father. These words can be a foil that gives voice to their own hearts. On the other hand, we can consider how different Anglo-Saxon society was by looking at the culture of vengeance and reciprocal warfare that resulted in this son's death. Very few of us even experience war, much less can imagine a life in which we expect every spring/summer to be attacked by, or to go out and attack, some neighboring city. What forces shaped society to develop those systems? How can we prevent returning to that? What was good about life then - what did the people enjoy, and what was evil? These are all questions that are worth asking and trying to answer. But we only get to explore those questions if we approach these texts, as the article's author states, as texts with presence in time and place, creations of real people from a certain time, encoding their particular moment with all its similarities and differences to ours. Lastly, it does sound better in Old English [1]. [0] https://www.gutenberg.org/files/16328/16328-h/16328-h.htm#XXXIV https://www.gutenberg.org/files/16328/16328-h/16328-h.htm#XX... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROghKY1jmuE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROghKY1jmuE (edit for formatting)
- ForHackernews 8y ago
  Maybe I'm not explaining myself well -- the passages you've quoted above do tell us in very poetic language that some character is sad that their sons died in battle, but they don't show that, really. As a reader, we have no access to their interior mental state, we just get the narrator's report that Herebald carries "heart-sorrow" (great word!). Something like this article might explain the distinction I'm not articulating correctly: http://nautil.us/issue/65/in-plain-sight/why-doesnt-ancient-fiction-talk-about-feelings-rp http://nautil.us/issue/65/in-plain-sight/why-doesnt-ancient-...

zandl 8y ago

This is what I find fascinating about the annals of Lü Buwei (239bc Qin Dynasty), in that he brought together the best philosophers of the time to create a book of all the knowledge, arts, sciences, food, almanacs and state leadership for future generations. Some of his leadership advice I actually haven’t seen elsewhere and learned from. So exactly what he had in mind after over 2200 years ago. I think the other thing one realizes with history is how much makes up the present, it’s part of our cultures today. We didn’t invent ideas of equality, women and animal rights, Aristotle references ancient states with these ideals — notably he mentions them as vulnerable to demagogues. Almond milk was used as a milk substitute in medieval French cooking since it’s easier to use. I feel we’re dismisive of previous generations and think of our selves as better when really nothing has changed outside of technology and our physical sciences.

chimprich 8y ago
> Some of his leadership advice I actually haven’t seen elsewhere and learned from. Intriguing, could you give us a flavour?
- zandl 8y ago
  One example, the leader of a state shouldn’t be doing anything since this biases their judgment, instead they should always rely on their ministers to be experts, and the fewer decisions one makes the more ideal the leader. It’s not just simple delegation that they’re talking about, it’s that at least on person has to have a clear view of the whole picture to make subtle adjustments, and if the leader is wrapped up in doing the work himself then it’s no longer possible. They have very strong words for leaders who do work themselves as being unfit and bluntly stupid. It certainly resonated for me as being completely correct, and adjusted my management style.
  - lostconfused 8y ago
    Ah that sounds pretty much the same type of management philosophy as espoused in "Clouds Above The Hill" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saka_no_Ue_no_Kumo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saka_no_Ue_no_Kumo The author attributes the successes of early Imperial Japanese Navy to the men in leadership roles being wise enough to focus on enabling their competent subordinates do their jobs and nothing more. At least a lot early 2nd volume is spent on organization and management structure. Japan spent a lot of time studying Chinese culture so it would make sense that they would addopt similar ideas. This article https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/07/22/the-talent-myth https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/07/22/the-talent-myt... claims this "loose tight" for of leadership is responsible for collapse of Enron.