6 ms·

He's obviously trolling, but he does have a point. If gender is fluid why is it so important for trans people to look like women, or men? Is it a necessity? The

He's obviously trolling, but he does have a point. If gender is fluid why is it so important for trans people to look like women, or men? Is it a necessity? Then why adopt distinct male or female features, genitalia which do not work as intended? So, is it just cosmetic? Then why are they modifying their bodies? Just to feel well and free? Same goes for this guy. He's feeling like he's much younger than he actually is. It's both a necessity and a cosmetic change in his birth certificate. Hell, let's kick off some studies to verify whether more people feel younger than they are. Sadly, I don't know any trans person to ask them how they feel and why they feel that way, in person.

rectang 8y ago
> Sadly, I don't know any trans person to ask them how they feel and why they feel that way, in person. The statistics are high enough that you definitely know someone who is trans. They just can't tell you.
- dschuetz 8y ago
  Well, they just can't blame me then for not understanding what's going on in their heads. What a feeling that must be, keeping it a secret that they were of opposite gender once. It's mind-boggling to me, really.
  - rectang 8y ago
    There can be severe consequences for those who reveal their transgender identity, from discrimination to death. The situation is directly analogous to that of closeted gays. The more trans people who come out, the easier it will be for individuals and for society at large to accept them. But many of those in the vanguard will pay a terrible price. > It's mind-boggling to me, really. I felt similarly about concept of homosexuality as a teenager back in the late 1980s. When I found out that a musical hero of mine (Bob Mould) was gay, I thought hard about the issue. What was it like to be gay? Could I be gay? What does it feel like to be attracted to someone of the same sex? It was a worthwhile exercise, regardless of the conclusion.
  - eesmith 8y ago
    They can blame you for not making an effort to read the many articles about trans people and their views. You may not know any Nobel Prize winners, but there sure are a lot of books about them you could read, which would give an idea of what's going on their heads.
    - dschuetz 8y ago
      I prefer talking, thanks.
      - xemoka 8y ago
        They don't need you to understand them, they need you to accept them. You don't get everything you want just because you ask.
      - Falling3 8y ago
        If you refuse to seek out the information that's out there because it's not your preferred means of learning - then, yes, they can blame you for not understanding what's in their heads.
AndrewDucker 8y ago
I suspect that gender feels very different to different people. Some people feel strongly connected to one gender, some to another, some don't feel strongly connected to one at all. Trans people feel strongly connected to a different gender than the one which they are physically. All sorts of interesting research has been done: https://www.the-scientist.com/features/are-the-brains-of-transgender-people-different-from-those-of-cisgender-people-30027 https://www.the-scientist.com/features/are-the-brains-of-tra...
- dschuetz 8y ago
  What do you mean "connected"? They can still live and feel like a man or woman, without their respective physical features, right? Just be a man, with female features (or vice versa) and surround yourself with people who support and don't judge you upon the facts. Why can't they accept their bodies? I, personally, I can perfectly accept other people with their respective identities, I don't really care what the people think they are. But, as soon they let cut themselves up and are heavily medicated, I begin to sense that they have trouble accepting themselves as who they are. I've had trouble accepting my own sexuality and features of my body, so I know exactly what I'm talking about.
  - rectang 8y ago
    I'm not trans, but I am acquainted with many trans people including an awesome past colleague. So take this for what it's worth from another person doing their best to understand gender dysphoria. Imagine that you were to wake up and find yourself in the body of the opposite gender, yet with your sense of attraction and your personal identity unchanged. Wouldn't many of your mannerisms seem awkward to you and to others? Would others be willing to accept your assertion of a gender that was at odds with your appearance? Would you? > But, as soon they let cut themselves up and are heavily medicated, I begin to sense that they have trouble accepting themselves as who they are. It doesn't get talked about much, but many of the treatments are painful, inconvenient, have difficult side effects, and do not always yield results which satisfy the subject. That people are willing to go through them nevertheless says a lot.
eesmith 8y ago
Please don't feel that the best way to figure out what a trans person feels like is to find one and ask them. Why do you think they want to educate a stranger? Instead, read one of the many, many articles on this topic. Written by trans people or trans-friendly people who specifically do want to educate strangers. Here's a "Q&A as a trans advocate’s nuanced perspective on Trans 101 questions." - http://www.transadvocate.com/a-trans-advocates-perspective-on-trans-101-questions_n_14906.htm http://www.transadvocate.com/a-trans-advocates-perspective-o... Here's a recent blog post on trans advocacy which gives "definitions that are in common use among people that seriously study gender" - https://freethoughtblogs.com/pervertjustice/2018/10/13/andy-lewis-gendered-gotcha/ https://freethoughtblogs.com/pervertjustice/2018/10/13/andy-... There are blogs, podcasts, YouTube channels, and more.
- dschuetz 8y ago
  Talking is the best way, believe me. Writing things up is easy. But talking is sooo much more revealing and effective, that I started to prefer talking over reading hours and hours of the same explanation. Being a trans person is much more of an individual thing, so to avoid generalization I'd like to ask a trans person, in person, what they feel like. I don't want to be educated, I'd like to know and to understand.
  - eesmith 8y ago
    The trans people of the world are not your personal tutors! If you don't even care enough to read the basics, why should they think that you care enough to really understand them? And there are writings from untold thousands of trans people, with different views, so it's not like reading will only give you generalizations. You'll get thousands of specifics.
    - dschuetz 8y ago
      Whatever happened to talking about personal issues. You really don't get it, do you?
      - 8y ago
dragonwriter 8y ago
> If gender is fluid why is it so important for trans people to look like women, or men? Fluid gender (identity; ascribed gender is externally imposed and to the extent it is or is not fluid, that's on society not the person to whom gender is ascribed) is an aspect of some people's gender identity, it is not something people (at least, many people) believe is inherent with all gender identity. Many trans people have as fixed an identity as the most cisnormative people believe all gender is, it's just not a cisgender identity. > Is it a necessity? For some, not for others. > Then why adopt distinct male or female features, genitalia which do not work as intended? There's a number of reasons (including the way society ascribes gender and mitigating the clash between ascribed gender and gender identity), which vary from individual to individual. But, also, that description of genitalia is the opposite of reality—for people that choose to change their genitalia, it is specifically because the new ones work more as intended by them than the old ones, not that they “do not work as intended”. > Sadly, I don't know any trans person to ask them how they feel and why they feel that way, in person. Happily, there's lots of information publicly available from trans people addressing those issues in every kind of media so that you don't need to rely on pestering people face to face to explain their gender identity and feelings surrounding it to you, which lots of people don't like to do.
- dschuetz 8y ago
  But talking to people in person about their emotions and feelings is important! It's very hard, I agree, but it's a necesserary thing dealing with issues. You have to speak out things, to actually voice them. Whence you are confident enough to voice them to some other person, you can talk about it and make other people better understand it. Just writing up some article full of technical and medical terms just doesn't do it.
bliblah 8y ago
You are conflating gender with sex >Sex is mechanical Male species use sperm to impregnate female eggs >Gender is a social construct What do you consider "Manly" or "Feminine"? I really dislike that 99% of all conversations would end if people just phrased it like this. Since a lot of trans people just want to be treated as a member of the opposite gender. "Age" is also very much a construct since I could use different calendars and have different birthdays to mark my age. But your cells definitely have a limited lifespan which is what most people care about when they talk about age.

rectang 8y ago

> Sadly, I don't know any trans person to ask them how they feel and why they feel that way, in person. The statistics are high enough that you definitely know someone who is trans. They just can't tell you.

dschuetz 8y ago
Well, they just can't blame me then for not understanding what's going on in their heads. What a feeling that must be, keeping it a secret that they were of opposite gender once. It's mind-boggling to me, really.
- rectang 8y ago
  There can be severe consequences for those who reveal their transgender identity, from discrimination to death. The situation is directly analogous to that of closeted gays. The more trans people who come out, the easier it will be for individuals and for society at large to accept them. But many of those in the vanguard will pay a terrible price. > It's mind-boggling to me, really. I felt similarly about concept of homosexuality as a teenager back in the late 1980s. When I found out that a musical hero of mine (Bob Mould) was gay, I thought hard about the issue. What was it like to be gay? Could I be gay? What does it feel like to be attracted to someone of the same sex? It was a worthwhile exercise, regardless of the conclusion.
- eesmith 8y ago
  They can blame you for not making an effort to read the many articles about trans people and their views. You may not know any Nobel Prize winners, but there sure are a lot of books about them you could read, which would give an idea of what's going on their heads.
  - dschuetz 8y ago
    I prefer talking, thanks.
    - xemoka 8y ago
      They don't need you to understand them, they need you to accept them. You don't get everything you want just because you ask.
    - Falling3 8y ago
      If you refuse to seek out the information that's out there because it's not your preferred means of learning - then, yes, they can blame you for not understanding what's in their heads.

AndrewDucker 8y ago

I suspect that gender feels very different to different people. Some people feel strongly connected to one gender, some to another, some don't feel strongly connected to one at all. Trans people feel strongly connected to a different gender than the one which they are physically. All sorts of interesting research has been done: https://www.the-scientist.com/features/are-the-brains-of-transgender-people-different-from-those-of-cisgender-people-30027 https://www.the-scientist.com/features/are-the-brains-of-tra...

dschuetz 8y ago
What do you mean "connected"? They can still live and feel like a man or woman, without their respective physical features, right? Just be a man, with female features (or vice versa) and surround yourself with people who support and don't judge you upon the facts. Why can't they accept their bodies? I, personally, I can perfectly accept other people with their respective identities, I don't really care what the people think they are. But, as soon they let cut themselves up and are heavily medicated, I begin to sense that they have trouble accepting themselves as who they are. I've had trouble accepting my own sexuality and features of my body, so I know exactly what I'm talking about.
- rectang 8y ago
  I'm not trans, but I am acquainted with many trans people including an awesome past colleague. So take this for what it's worth from another person doing their best to understand gender dysphoria. Imagine that you were to wake up and find yourself in the body of the opposite gender, yet with your sense of attraction and your personal identity unchanged. Wouldn't many of your mannerisms seem awkward to you and to others? Would others be willing to accept your assertion of a gender that was at odds with your appearance? Would you? > But, as soon they let cut themselves up and are heavily medicated, I begin to sense that they have trouble accepting themselves as who they are. It doesn't get talked about much, but many of the treatments are painful, inconvenient, have difficult side effects, and do not always yield results which satisfy the subject. That people are willing to go through them nevertheless says a lot.

eesmith 8y ago

Please don't feel that the best way to figure out what a trans person feels like is to find one and ask them. Why do you think they want to educate a stranger? Instead, read one of the many, many articles on this topic. Written by trans people or trans-friendly people who specifically do want to educate strangers. Here's a "Q&A as a trans advocate’s nuanced perspective on Trans 101 questions." - http://www.transadvocate.com/a-trans-advocates-perspective-on-trans-101-questions_n_14906.htm http://www.transadvocate.com/a-trans-advocates-perspective-o... Here's a recent blog post on trans advocacy which gives "definitions that are in common use among people that seriously study gender" - https://freethoughtblogs.com/pervertjustice/2018/10/13/andy-lewis-gendered-gotcha/ https://freethoughtblogs.com/pervertjustice/2018/10/13/andy-... There are blogs, podcasts, YouTube channels, and more.

dschuetz 8y ago
Talking is the best way, believe me. Writing things up is easy. But talking is sooo much more revealing and effective, that I started to prefer talking over reading hours and hours of the same explanation. Being a trans person is much more of an individual thing, so to avoid generalization I'd like to ask a trans person, in person, what they feel like. I don't want to be educated, I'd like to know and to understand.
- eesmith 8y ago
  The trans people of the world are not your personal tutors! If you don't even care enough to read the basics, why should they think that you care enough to really understand them? And there are writings from untold thousands of trans people, with different views, so it's not like reading will only give you generalizations. You'll get thousands of specifics.
  - dschuetz 8y ago
    Whatever happened to talking about personal issues. You really don't get it, do you?
    - 8y ago

dragonwriter 8y ago

> If gender is fluid why is it so important for trans people to look like women, or men? Fluid gender (identity; ascribed gender is externally imposed and to the extent it is or is not fluid, that's on society not the person to whom gender is ascribed) is an aspect of some people's gender identity, it is not something people (at least, many people) believe is inherent with all gender identity. Many trans people have as fixed an identity as the most cisnormative people believe all gender is, it's just not a cisgender identity. > Is it a necessity? For some, not for others. > Then why adopt distinct male or female features, genitalia which do not work as intended? There's a number of reasons (including the way society ascribes gender and mitigating the clash between ascribed gender and gender identity), which vary from individual to individual. But, also, that description of genitalia is the opposite of reality—for people that choose to change their genitalia, it is specifically because the new ones work more as intended by them than the old ones, not that they “do not work as intended”. > Sadly, I don't know any trans person to ask them how they feel and why they feel that way, in person. Happily, there's lots of information publicly available from trans people addressing those issues in every kind of media so that you don't need to rely on pestering people face to face to explain their gender identity and feelings surrounding it to you, which lots of people don't like to do.

dschuetz 8y ago
But talking to people in person about their emotions and feelings is important! It's very hard, I agree, but it's a necesserary thing dealing with issues. You have to speak out things, to actually voice them. Whence you are confident enough to voice them to some other person, you can talk about it and make other people better understand it. Just writing up some article full of technical and medical terms just doesn't do it.

bliblah 8y ago

You are conflating gender with sex >Sex is mechanical Male species use sperm to impregnate female eggs >Gender is a social construct What do you consider "Manly" or "Feminine"? I really dislike that 99% of all conversations would end if people just phrased it like this. Since a lot of trans people just want to be treated as a member of the opposite gender. "Age" is also very much a construct since I could use different calendars and have different birthdays to mark my age. But your cells definitely have a limited lifespan which is what most people care about when they talk about age.