13 ms·

Spanking Is Ineffective and Harmful to Children, Pediatricians’ Group Says

28 points by gotocake 8y ago

thewhitetulip 8y ago
I find this funny. Most Indian kids are mentally harassed while American parents don't even hit their kids. I remember being hit until I stopped crying. And that's considered normal
- awa 8y ago
  Ex-Indian kid checking in here, I don't remember being hit as a kid nor does my wife. I remember getting slapped once (I totally deserved it though) but that wasn't really hitting since it wasn't hard enough (and I was quite old). So, I don't agree its normal.
  - projektir 8y ago
    > (I totally deserved it though) The commonality of this qualifier kind of disturbs me. You were a kid. Kids have no idea what they're doing or what's going on and don't deserve shit.
    - blub 8y ago
      What do you mean by kids? I have seen four year olds that know quite a lot and kids are good at emotional manipulation and pushing the limits of what's allowed.
      - isoskeles 8y ago
        Kids do this because that's their job. They're children. They often learn about the world by pushing up against boundaries. I was hit pretty severely by my parents. It didn't teach me any moral lessons. There's no way it would teach any child decent values, all they'll learn from it is (a) might makes right and (b) don't get caught. I cannot conceive of and have never heard a convincing argument for seriously hitting a child. They're smaller than you, defenseless, and we're talking about a behavior that you would, hopefully, never do to a stranger, your coworkers, your friends, your spouse, etc. Why do it to your child? The only real reason that weirdly makes sense, but I completely disagree with, is you think your child is your property, so you get to hit it.
        thewhitetulip 8y ago
        Exactly. Kids are like sponge. They learn to behave in a way they see in the world. That's why yelling and beating isn't a good way to raise them. Source: was raised like that!
        blub 8y ago
        My parents smacked me on the bottom or tweaked my ear a couple of times when I was a kid. I learned pretty fast that some situations are worth taking notice of... It matters a lot how the parents treat you otherwise. In my case it happened rarely and it came with a scolding to clarify what I did wrong.
  - thewhitetulip 8y ago
    Well, you might not have been hit as a child. A lot of children are. And being one of them, let me assure you, none of my friends knew the shit I went through at home. Nobody still knows. So yeah, it might not be Normal for you, and I am genuinely happy that you weren't abused as a child. More power to you.
    - anxman 8y ago
      I am in this boat too. I have diagnosed PTSD that still haunts me to this day. This stood out to me from the article: “Spanking alone is associated with outcomes similar to those of children who experience physical abuse, the new academy statement says.“ Spanking is not similar to child abuse. It is child abuse.
      - thewhitetulip 8y ago
        I was totally fucked up as a child, adult. Didn't have any friends. It wasn't until I was 25 that I met my first real best friend who "took care" of me in the literal sense. Now I'm relatively normal. I literally owe my life to my best friend! Lucky they I have her
      - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
        I disagree, strongly. Spanking can be child abuse. But it isn't always. And yes, I was spanked. By my parents, and at least once by a babysitter. The only one I really remember was the babysitter, not because the pain was so bad, but because she not only pulled my pants down to do it (no padding to help me), but also eventually made me leave them down because I was going to get another spanking pretty soon anyway. You might regard that as abuse, but I remember it because it was unusual, not because it was so horrible. (And yes, I was being a snot to her...)
        thewhitetulip 8y ago
        Well the best part of being abused as a child is that if you grow up without the typical anti social behaviour, you get some sense of clarity about how the worls truly is Other kids who were having better parents than mine are now fucking delusional while I am having the right priorities, I dont5 waste money, save as much as I can because there is no fucking way I am going to ask them for help again! Back then I was helpless, I ain't helpless any more But that is if you arent5 fucked up, if you are then you are damaged goods for life
- craftyguy 8y ago
  > while American parents don't even hit their kids. I remember being hit until I stopped crying. And that's considered normal reply I was an American kid hit (many times) by parents. What you find "funny" is, well, bullshit. Consider that abuse is abuse regardless of demographic.
  - blub 8y ago
    Why were you getting hit by your parents? I could see it being abuse if it happens for no reason or minor things. In general I have the feeling that americans kiss their kids' ass too much.
    - thewhitetulip 8y ago
      Well, mother was "strict" so she would "discipline" me. But there is a big difference between mental and physical abuse and discipline but typically, Indian parents don't recognize it But its ok. I'm over it. Whatever I am is because of my past, or rather despite it.
      - blub 8y ago
        My parents loved me and I knew that, they sacrificed a lot for me. Physical punishment happened rarely and "for a reason". Looking back, I don't think I was hurt by that kind of disciplining. Anyway, something has to be used by parents to discipline their children; give them free courses, brochures, whatever with the proven methods to get kids under control. I've seen some complete parenting failures which resulted in very spoiled and rude kids.
        thewhitetulip 8y ago
        Thing is, Indian parents think hitting is the only way to discipline kids. But you can raise them without hitting. American kids are more independent than Indian kids for a good reason. I've seen in movies that "curfew for a month" (or whatever they call it) That never happens in India. Also the new gen parents are utter failures, at lesst majority. Both parents work, both travel a lot to and from office, so much so that they are weekend parents and their kids are raised by Youtube. Or course there are good number of exceptions too. But majority kids these days are raised by youtube My nephew doesn't do anything unless you hand him youtube. He won't eat, brush or anything else.
- mikeymz 8y ago
  I'm English and used to get walloped all the time. I was a little shit though. Can't think of an occasion where it wasn't deserved and I hadn't been warned many times. Honestly didn't do me any harm but I don't hit my kids
- ionised 8y ago
  > I remember being hit until I stopped crying. I remember being hit until I hit back. Then I was never hit again. My parents are still the useless human beings they were back then and I'm better off without them.
  - thewhitetulip 8y ago
    Well, I never did that. But now that I've grown up, I do not respect them as mucha s they expect and they wonder why it is!
newtothebay 8y ago
There's one argument with hitting the kids that I don't know to argue with. It goes like this. There are things in life with consequences that are dire yet can only be felt in the long run (e.g. a smart kid can coast with bad work ethics until college / grad school / start up). As a parent, you can explain these consequences, and the kid may intellectually agree, but can not fully internalize. Hitting the kid is simply a way to translate these long-term consequences into short-term ones that can be more easily felt. It's simply the equivalent to celebrating milestones in a long project, translating long-term benefits into short-term ones that can be easily felt. Why is the former vilified, while the later touted as good practice?
- simonbw 8y ago
  I don’t think the turning long-term consequences into short-term ones is what’s vilified about spanking. There are other ways of doing this that don’t resort to violence.
  - newtothebay 8y ago
    What would be other ways to do it (with similar level of efficacy)?
    - simonbw 8y ago
      I’m not a parent so I don’t think I have a super great understanding of which punishments are most effective, but ones I can think of: - Taking away something that they like - scolding them - giving them a time-out I’m not sure if they are as effective as spanking or not, but they can all be ways of turning long-term consequences into short-term ones, and I don’t think they are vilified the same way as spanking. My point being that the violent part of spanking is what is frowned upon, not the making-consequences-immediate part.
      - stevew20 8y ago
        These methods did not work with me. Or at least they didn't scale well... When I did something totally dumb (like stealing a piece of candy from a store), my parents upped the punishment to physical violence, and that showed me just how bad my action was. If I were to steal something as an adult and went to jail, i would face physical abuse. Spanking is useful is portraying that outcome, without me actually having to go to jail.
konschubert 8y ago
Is spanking kids not illegal in the US?
- King-Aaron 8y ago
  Curious, where are you from that it is illegal? I'm no parent, but I don't think it's illegal here in Aus...
  - themihai 8y ago
    >> Curious, where are you from that it is illegal? In Norway I know for sure that you are very likely to loose your child for this. The "illegality" issue is more an enforcement issue. Spanking is illegal in many countries(in the EU at least) but it not enforced.
  - konschubert 8y ago
    Germany
- ptx 8y ago
  The US and Somalia used to share the distinction of being the only two UN member states not to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child[1], but Somalia finally ratified it in 2015. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_...
- jemfinch 8y ago
  Spanking in the US is typically not illegal unless it results in bruising after the fact, or a repeated pattern which amounts to emotional abuse.
esarbe 8y ago
Abuse can take many forms. It can be physical, psychological or emotional. Everything that damages a child permanently must be considered abuse. That said; as long as it leaves no lasting damage, even physical punishment serves it's purpose. A little twist of the ear can work wonders when it comes to getting the attention of a child that needs to do some listening. Just be sure not do do it in anger.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
ta1108 8y ago
There’s only one time I ever spanked either of my children (one boy one girl). Both of them around 5 years old went through a phase where they started dealing with anger/upset by hitting. In particular mom would enforce some limit or positive discipline or be telling them to do something and an argument would escalate to the child starting to pummel my wife. At first this was dealt with separating them, carrying the child to their room and putting them on their bed and telling them to stay there until they have calmed down. Many discussions around better ways to respond, how to use their voice, how to manage that fire that builds up in their belly, what to do with their hands when they feel that urge to just hit, etc. At some point you hit a wall with these strategies. It’s like telling a child “don’t run down the stairs” a hundred times but until they come crashing down and get a nasty bruise they won’t stop doing it. So for both kids eventually there came a day when they were causing real physical harm to my wife (a small child can actually still hurt you) and it crossed a line. “What you are doing is hurting your mom. Not just her heart but her body. It’s OK to be angry. Sometimes if you have to yell it’s OK to yell. It’s never OK to hit, kick, bite or scratch in anger. In the world if you hit someone do you know what happens? Besides getting in big trouble? You get hit back. The next time you hit your mom you’re getting a spanking.” And then I proceeded to explain how in some houses children who misbehave get spanked, and that’s not how we choose to do it. But this has gotten to the point where we’re going to try that if it happens again. Sure enough several days later another tantrum lead to my child starting to punch and kick. I think in the end actually spanking my child was more memorable for me than it was for them. But I could see it clicked immediately for them. For both of them it was a last resort, and for both of them it was necessary to finally crystallize that meltdowns can happen, but a violent meltdown is truly unacceptable. In both cases I wished I hadn’t waited as long to finally resort to corporeal punishment because frankly the emotional distress to my wife in the meantime was a big cost to pay to avoid using it. It’s so easy to gloss over the true grit involved in day-to-day parenting. Shit can get real, and spanking or not spanking both can carry consequences. It’s easy to demonize the parent who resorts to spanking their child as an outlet for their own frustration. I think the modern attitude of shocked outrage to any spanking is itself damaging (even if many instances of spanking are indeed shocking and outrageous) But it is also possible that not all children can learn all lessons aurally, and some lessons/boundaries are absolutely crucial to be established for the health and safety of the child, or the rest of the family.
justtopost 8y ago
Unfortunately, until there is hard data for effacacy and long term effect, this seems to be a strictly cultural statement, no matter how universal, rather than medical or ethical in nature.
08-15 8y ago
Statistics establish a correlation between a child having been spanked and the child growing up into a stupid and/or violent adult. Correlation is not causation. The alternative to corporal punishment most commonly offered is to "reason with your child". (That's bunk from the outset. We don't let children vote or drive cars exactly because they are unreasonable.) But what do you do if your child is too violent or too stupid to reason with? You hit it anyway. The causation may be there, but it goes in the opposite direction. Meanwhile, the alternatives offered in linked articles (e.g. https://www.healthychildren.org/English/family-life/family-dynamics/communication-discipline/Pages/Disciplining-Older-Children.aspx https://www.healthychildren.org/English/family-life/family-d...) sound counterproductive. No conflict has ever been resolved by "actively ignoring" someone or something (it's an oxymoron anyway). The future studies investigating the long term effect of that kind of passive-aggressive behavior will be interesting. (Just in case someone jumps to conclusions: I don't have children.)

28 points by gotocake 8y ago

I find this funny. Most Indian kids are mentally harassed while American parents don't even hit their kids. I remember being hit until I stopped crying. And that's considered normal

awa 8y ago
Ex-Indian kid checking in here, I don't remember being hit as a kid nor does my wife. I remember getting slapped once (I totally deserved it though) but that wasn't really hitting since it wasn't hard enough (and I was quite old). So, I don't agree its normal.
- projektir 8y ago
  > (I totally deserved it though) The commonality of this qualifier kind of disturbs me. You were a kid. Kids have no idea what they're doing or what's going on and don't deserve shit.
  - blub 8y ago
    What do you mean by kids? I have seen four year olds that know quite a lot and kids are good at emotional manipulation and pushing the limits of what's allowed.
    - isoskeles 8y ago
      Kids do this because that's their job. They're children. They often learn about the world by pushing up against boundaries. I was hit pretty severely by my parents. It didn't teach me any moral lessons. There's no way it would teach any child decent values, all they'll learn from it is (a) might makes right and (b) don't get caught. I cannot conceive of and have never heard a convincing argument for seriously hitting a child. They're smaller than you, defenseless, and we're talking about a behavior that you would, hopefully, never do to a stranger, your coworkers, your friends, your spouse, etc. Why do it to your child? The only real reason that weirdly makes sense, but I completely disagree with, is you think your child is your property, so you get to hit it.
      - thewhitetulip 8y ago
        Exactly. Kids are like sponge. They learn to behave in a way they see in the world. That's why yelling and beating isn't a good way to raise them. Source: was raised like that!
      - blub 8y ago
        My parents smacked me on the bottom or tweaked my ear a couple of times when I was a kid. I learned pretty fast that some situations are worth taking notice of... It matters a lot how the parents treat you otherwise. In my case it happened rarely and it came with a scolding to clarify what I did wrong.
- thewhitetulip 8y ago
  Well, you might not have been hit as a child. A lot of children are. And being one of them, let me assure you, none of my friends knew the shit I went through at home. Nobody still knows. So yeah, it might not be Normal for you, and I am genuinely happy that you weren't abused as a child. More power to you.
  - anxman 8y ago
    I am in this boat too. I have diagnosed PTSD that still haunts me to this day. This stood out to me from the article: “Spanking alone is associated with outcomes similar to those of children who experience physical abuse, the new academy statement says.“ Spanking is not similar to child abuse. It is child abuse.
    - thewhitetulip 8y ago
      I was totally fucked up as a child, adult. Didn't have any friends. It wasn't until I was 25 that I met my first real best friend who "took care" of me in the literal sense. Now I'm relatively normal. I literally owe my life to my best friend! Lucky they I have her
    - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
      I disagree, strongly. Spanking can be child abuse. But it isn't always. And yes, I was spanked. By my parents, and at least once by a babysitter. The only one I really remember was the babysitter, not because the pain was so bad, but because she not only pulled my pants down to do it (no padding to help me), but also eventually made me leave them down because I was going to get another spanking pretty soon anyway. You might regard that as abuse, but I remember it because it was unusual, not because it was so horrible. (And yes, I was being a snot to her...)
      - thewhitetulip 8y ago
        Well the best part of being abused as a child is that if you grow up without the typical anti social behaviour, you get some sense of clarity about how the worls truly is Other kids who were having better parents than mine are now fucking delusional while I am having the right priorities, I dont5 waste money, save as much as I can because there is no fucking way I am going to ask them for help again! Back then I was helpless, I ain't helpless any more But that is if you arent5 fucked up, if you are then you are damaged goods for life
craftyguy 8y ago
> while American parents don't even hit their kids. I remember being hit until I stopped crying. And that's considered normal reply I was an American kid hit (many times) by parents. What you find "funny" is, well, bullshit. Consider that abuse is abuse regardless of demographic.
- blub 8y ago
  Why were you getting hit by your parents? I could see it being abuse if it happens for no reason or minor things. In general I have the feeling that americans kiss their kids' ass too much.
  - thewhitetulip 8y ago
    Well, mother was "strict" so she would "discipline" me. But there is a big difference between mental and physical abuse and discipline but typically, Indian parents don't recognize it But its ok. I'm over it. Whatever I am is because of my past, or rather despite it.
    - blub 8y ago
      My parents loved me and I knew that, they sacrificed a lot for me. Physical punishment happened rarely and "for a reason". Looking back, I don't think I was hurt by that kind of disciplining. Anyway, something has to be used by parents to discipline their children; give them free courses, brochures, whatever with the proven methods to get kids under control. I've seen some complete parenting failures which resulted in very spoiled and rude kids.
      - thewhitetulip 8y ago
        Thing is, Indian parents think hitting is the only way to discipline kids. But you can raise them without hitting. American kids are more independent than Indian kids for a good reason. I've seen in movies that "curfew for a month" (or whatever they call it) That never happens in India. Also the new gen parents are utter failures, at lesst majority. Both parents work, both travel a lot to and from office, so much so that they are weekend parents and their kids are raised by Youtube. Or course there are good number of exceptions too. But majority kids these days are raised by youtube My nephew doesn't do anything unless you hand him youtube. He won't eat, brush or anything else.
mikeymz 8y ago
I'm English and used to get walloped all the time. I was a little shit though. Can't think of an occasion where it wasn't deserved and I hadn't been warned many times. Honestly didn't do me any harm but I don't hit my kids
ionised 8y ago
> I remember being hit until I stopped crying. I remember being hit until I hit back. Then I was never hit again. My parents are still the useless human beings they were back then and I'm better off without them.
- thewhitetulip 8y ago
  Well, I never did that. But now that I've grown up, I do not respect them as mucha s they expect and they wonder why it is!

newtothebay 8y ago

There's one argument with hitting the kids that I don't know to argue with. It goes like this. There are things in life with consequences that are dire yet can only be felt in the long run (e.g. a smart kid can coast with bad work ethics until college / grad school / start up). As a parent, you can explain these consequences, and the kid may intellectually agree, but can not fully internalize. Hitting the kid is simply a way to translate these long-term consequences into short-term ones that can be more easily felt. It's simply the equivalent to celebrating milestones in a long project, translating long-term benefits into short-term ones that can be easily felt. Why is the former vilified, while the later touted as good practice?

simonbw 8y ago
I don’t think the turning long-term consequences into short-term ones is what’s vilified about spanking. There are other ways of doing this that don’t resort to violence.
- newtothebay 8y ago
  What would be other ways to do it (with similar level of efficacy)?
  - simonbw 8y ago
    I’m not a parent so I don’t think I have a super great understanding of which punishments are most effective, but ones I can think of: - Taking away something that they like - scolding them - giving them a time-out I’m not sure if they are as effective as spanking or not, but they can all be ways of turning long-term consequences into short-term ones, and I don’t think they are vilified the same way as spanking. My point being that the violent part of spanking is what is frowned upon, not the making-consequences-immediate part.
    - stevew20 8y ago
      These methods did not work with me. Or at least they didn't scale well... When I did something totally dumb (like stealing a piece of candy from a store), my parents upped the punishment to physical violence, and that showed me just how bad my action was. If I were to steal something as an adult and went to jail, i would face physical abuse. Spanking is useful is portraying that outcome, without me actually having to go to jail.

konschubert 8y ago

Is spanking kids not illegal in the US?

King-Aaron 8y ago
Curious, where are you from that it is illegal? I'm no parent, but I don't think it's illegal here in Aus...
- themihai 8y ago
  >> Curious, where are you from that it is illegal? In Norway I know for sure that you are very likely to loose your child for this. The "illegality" issue is more an enforcement issue. Spanking is illegal in many countries(in the EU at least) but it not enforced.
- konschubert 8y ago
  Germany
ptx 8y ago
The US and Somalia used to share the distinction of being the only two UN member states not to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child[1], but Somalia finally ratified it in 2015. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_...
jemfinch 8y ago
Spanking in the US is typically not illegal unless it results in bruising after the fact, or a repeated pattern which amounts to emotional abuse.

esarbe 8y ago

Abuse can take many forms. It can be physical, psychological or emotional. Everything that damages a child permanently must be considered abuse. That said; as long as it leaves no lasting damage, even physical punishment serves it's purpose. A little twist of the ear can work wonders when it comes to getting the attention of a child that needs to do some listening. Just be sure not do do it in anger.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

ta1108 8y ago

There’s only one time I ever spanked either of my children (one boy one girl). Both of them around 5 years old went through a phase where they started dealing with anger/upset by hitting. In particular mom would enforce some limit or positive discipline or be telling them to do something and an argument would escalate to the child starting to pummel my wife. At first this was dealt with separating them, carrying the child to their room and putting them on their bed and telling them to stay there until they have calmed down. Many discussions around better ways to respond, how to use their voice, how to manage that fire that builds up in their belly, what to do with their hands when they feel that urge to just hit, etc. At some point you hit a wall with these strategies. It’s like telling a child “don’t run down the stairs” a hundred times but until they come crashing down and get a nasty bruise they won’t stop doing it. So for both kids eventually there came a day when they were causing real physical harm to my wife (a small child can actually still hurt you) and it crossed a line. “What you are doing is hurting your mom. Not just her heart but her body. It’s OK to be angry. Sometimes if you have to yell it’s OK to yell. It’s never OK to hit, kick, bite or scratch in anger. In the world if you hit someone do you know what happens? Besides getting in big trouble? You get hit back. The next time you hit your mom you’re getting a spanking.” And then I proceeded to explain how in some houses children who misbehave get spanked, and that’s not how we choose to do it. But this has gotten to the point where we’re going to try that if it happens again. Sure enough several days later another tantrum lead to my child starting to punch and kick. I think in the end actually spanking my child was more memorable for me than it was for them. But I could see it clicked immediately for them. For both of them it was a last resort, and for both of them it was necessary to finally crystallize that meltdowns can happen, but a violent meltdown is truly unacceptable. In both cases I wished I hadn’t waited as long to finally resort to corporeal punishment because frankly the emotional distress to my wife in the meantime was a big cost to pay to avoid using it. It’s so easy to gloss over the true grit involved in day-to-day parenting. Shit can get real, and spanking or not spanking both can carry consequences. It’s easy to demonize the parent who resorts to spanking their child as an outlet for their own frustration. I think the modern attitude of shocked outrage to any spanking is itself damaging (even if many instances of spanking are indeed shocking and outrageous) But it is also possible that not all children can learn all lessons aurally, and some lessons/boundaries are absolutely crucial to be established for the health and safety of the child, or the rest of the family.

justtopost 8y ago

Unfortunately, until there is hard data for effacacy and long term effect, this seems to be a strictly cultural statement, no matter how universal, rather than medical or ethical in nature.

08-15 8y ago

Statistics establish a correlation between a child having been spanked and the child growing up into a stupid and/or violent adult. Correlation is not causation. The alternative to corporal punishment most commonly offered is to "reason with your child". (That's bunk from the outset. We don't let children vote or drive cars exactly because they are unreasonable.) But what do you do if your child is too violent or too stupid to reason with? You hit it anyway. The causation may be there, but it goes in the opposite direction. Meanwhile, the alternatives offered in linked articles (e.g. https://www.healthychildren.org/English/family-life/family-dynamics/communication-discipline/Pages/Disciplining-Older-Children.aspx https://www.healthychildren.org/English/family-life/family-d...) sound counterproductive. No conflict has ever been resolved by "actively ignoring" someone or something (it's an oxymoron anyway). The future studies investigating the long term effect of that kind of passive-aggressive behavior will be interesting. (Just in case someone jumps to conclusions: I don't have children.)