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I really don't like the fact that any argument or concern perceived to be outside a commonly-held value system is usually shut-down by some meta-argument about

I really don't like the fact that any argument or concern perceived to be outside a commonly-held value system is usually shut-down by some meta-argument about the strategy being wrong, without even a chance of being evaluated on its merits. I mean, if you're right and no one will bother to listen to these concerns then you shouldn't have to say anything at all, just let it be ignored. If you have a specific better way of communicating these concerns then do that. But the discussion about any given issue often ends up being primarily about how the issue will be perceived, and everyone's perception of the subject is then colored by what commentators think people will think about it, leaving no room for actually discussing the issue honestly and trusting that people are generally smart enough to take in both sides and make their own decision, not because one side had better strategy, but because they heard someone actually discussing the issue and not some meta-concern about how the issue should be discussed. Yes I realize the irony in this comment.

Bartweiss 8y ago
> If you're right and no one will bother to listen to these concerns then you shouldn't have to say anything at all, just let it be ignored. If you have a specific better way of communicating these concerns then do that. I agree with your general concern, but I'm not sure I accept this part. At the moment, a lot of smart, tech-savvy people channel a lot of energy into fighting this sort of thing directly. They look for weaknesses in the systems, analyze potential abuses, go to town hall meetings and Senate hearings. If that's ultimately a doomed delaying tactic, it doesn't mean the entire problem is unsolvable - but it also doesn't mean the people who think it's hopeless have a better answer on hand. I think there's room to say "fighting this directly isn't going to work, so let's use the time we're buying to look for a better answer". It could perhaps be said with more positivity or focus on the 'elsewhere', but the lack of a proposal doesn't mean the criticism is invalid. (Of course, we should also directly ask if the pessimism is warranted. The crypto wars never ended, but for all the fatalism over that issue we're in a far better position today than "RSA is a munition, install this Clipper chip". I worry that the common axis is not "activism wins" but "containment fails", which argues crypto and surveillance will both spread. But I think it's an open question.)

Bartweiss 8y ago

> If you're right and no one will bother to listen to these concerns then you shouldn't have to say anything at all, just let it be ignored. If you have a specific better way of communicating these concerns then do that. I agree with your general concern, but I'm not sure I accept this part. At the moment, a lot of smart, tech-savvy people channel a lot of energy into fighting this sort of thing directly. They look for weaknesses in the systems, analyze potential abuses, go to town hall meetings and Senate hearings. If that's ultimately a doomed delaying tactic, it doesn't mean the entire problem is unsolvable - but it also doesn't mean the people who think it's hopeless have a better answer on hand. I think there's room to say "fighting this directly isn't going to work, so let's use the time we're buying to look for a better answer". It could perhaps be said with more positivity or focus on the 'elsewhere', but the lack of a proposal doesn't mean the criticism is invalid. (Of course, we should also directly ask if the pessimism is warranted. The crypto wars never ended, but for all the fatalism over that issue we're in a far better position today than "RSA is a munition, install this Clipper chip". I worry that the common axis is not "activism wins" but "containment fails", which argues crypto and surveillance will both spread. But I think it's an open question.)