5 ms·

There's a lot of negativity here. A lot of these quotes seem to offer more heat than light.

by canhascodez 8y ago

goatlover 8y ago
A lot of hard won negativity from painful experience.
- canhascodez 8y ago
  Programming is tough. That doesn't necessarily mean that we need to emphasize the negative aspects. However, the more concerning element to me is that there are a fair number of gratuitous insults. I am as prone to making and/or enjoying a witty jab as the next person, but I recognize that this is not a wholly positive trait, and try to resist the impulse. I feel like the distilled genius of this profession has something finer to offer than Perl-bashing, or at least, I hope so.
icebraining 8y ago
That's cat-v.org for ya, curated by the late Uriel[1]. If you want some real negativity, go read the harmful section [2]. Some of us enjoy rants and anger. Positivity is overrated. [1] https://suckless.org/people/Uriel/ https://suckless.org/people/Uriel/ [2] http://harmful.cat-v.org/ http://harmful.cat-v.org/
- bspammer 8y ago
  I've heard about this guy before. Reading a few of his posts in the second link (particularly the one about children), it seems like he was a deeply unhappy individual. Rants and anger can be fun, but wallow in them too long and it begins to feel like there's nothing else. He was clearly a very talented programmer though, and as someone who reads and writes Go regularly I have a lot to thank him for.
emmanueloga_ 8y ago
I believe a more appropriate noun is "contempt" :-) I found this page [1] some time ago, maybe someone can find some good quotes in here but the page is kind of long and heavy and not super quotable, maybe some of you will find some gems in there. Top of the page is Xah Lee, a lovable, and sometimes a bit weird, cranky master of contempt: > The basis of computer languages' merit lies in their mathematical properties. > It is this metric, that we should use as a guide for direction. > As an analogy, we measure the quality of a hammer by scientific principles: > ergonomics, material (weight, hardness. . .), construction, statistical > analysis of accidents/productivity/… …etc., not by vogue or lore. > If we go by feelings and preferences, hammer's future will deviate > and perhaps become dildos or maces. (Xah Lee in comp.lang.lisp, July 2000) I think Xah is cranky but many times on to something. For instance, point 6 in his list of "Python Doc Idiocies" [2] is hard to disagree with :-). 1: http://www.schnada.de/quotes/contempt.html http://www.schnada.de/quotes/contempt.html 2: http://xahlee.info/python/python_doc_index.html http://xahlee.info/python/python_doc_index.html P.S.: if you enjoy Xah's writing you should pay for his excellent emacs manual [3]. It is actually openly available but he accepts contributions. 3: http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/buy_xah_emacs_tutorial.html http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/buy_xah_emacs_tutorial.html UPDATE: he actually has a Patreon account too! [4] 4: https://www.patreon.com/xahlee https://www.patreon.com/xahlee
- canhascodez 8y ago
  I don't value contempt. I don't think that contempt is strongly associated with programming or computer science. I would consider that to be a problem. I can't condone the expression of contempt in the public discourse related to computer science. I do not typically have much free money for donations, but I would on principle refuse to financially support contempt. I would wonder that anyone would consider that a positive trait. I certainly think that this attitude would discourage newcomers to the field, and I think it's worth working to promote a different image and mindset.
  - emmanueloga_ 8y ago
    I'm not suggesting that you support "contempt", but the person behind the writings, and only if you enjoy the writing style. Also, Xah also has all sorts of other documents were he carefully tries to avoid the mistakes he criticizes in other documents, and were contempt is not the main driver. I'm sure he spent countless hours writing those materials and he's made those documents available for absolutely free! [1] The best intellectual and artistic endeavors are deeply flavored by the emotions of their authors, which gives the works a measure of authenticity. I personally can appreciate that, the same way I can also appreciate a lot of forms of dark humor. Also, I'm OK with others not sharing that appreciation. 1: http://xahlee.info/comp/comp_lang_tutorials_index.html http://xahlee.info/comp/comp_lang_tutorials_index.html

There's a lot of negativity here. A lot of these quotes seem to offer more heat than light.

goatlover 8y ago

A lot of hard won negativity from painful experience.

canhascodez 8y ago
Programming is tough. That doesn't necessarily mean that we need to emphasize the negative aspects. However, the more concerning element to me is that there are a fair number of gratuitous insults. I am as prone to making and/or enjoying a witty jab as the next person, but I recognize that this is not a wholly positive trait, and try to resist the impulse. I feel like the distilled genius of this profession has something finer to offer than Perl-bashing, or at least, I hope so.

icebraining 8y ago

That's cat-v.org for ya, curated by the late Uriel[1]. If you want some real negativity, go read the harmful section [2]. Some of us enjoy rants and anger. Positivity is overrated. [1] https://suckless.org/people/Uriel/ https://suckless.org/people/Uriel/ [2] http://harmful.cat-v.org/ http://harmful.cat-v.org/

bspammer 8y ago
I've heard about this guy before. Reading a few of his posts in the second link (particularly the one about children), it seems like he was a deeply unhappy individual. Rants and anger can be fun, but wallow in them too long and it begins to feel like there's nothing else. He was clearly a very talented programmer though, and as someone who reads and writes Go regularly I have a lot to thank him for.

emmanueloga_ 8y ago

I believe a more appropriate noun is "contempt" :-) I found this page [1] some time ago, maybe someone can find some good quotes in here but the page is kind of long and heavy and not super quotable, maybe some of you will find some gems in there. Top of the page is Xah Lee, a lovable, and sometimes a bit weird, cranky master of contempt: > The basis of computer languages' merit lies in their mathematical properties. > It is this metric, that we should use as a guide for direction. > As an analogy, we measure the quality of a hammer by scientific principles: > ergonomics, material (weight, hardness. . .), construction, statistical > analysis of accidents/productivity/… …etc., not by vogue or lore. > If we go by feelings and preferences, hammer's future will deviate > and perhaps become dildos or maces. (Xah Lee in comp.lang.lisp, July 2000) I think Xah is cranky but many times on to something. For instance, point 6 in his list of "Python Doc Idiocies" [2] is hard to disagree with :-). 1: http://www.schnada.de/quotes/contempt.html http://www.schnada.de/quotes/contempt.html 2: http://xahlee.info/python/python_doc_index.html http://xahlee.info/python/python_doc_index.html P.S.: if you enjoy Xah's writing you should pay for his excellent emacs manual [3]. It is actually openly available but he accepts contributions. 3: http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/buy_xah_emacs_tutorial.html http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/buy_xah_emacs_tutorial.html UPDATE: he actually has a Patreon account too! [4] 4: https://www.patreon.com/xahlee https://www.patreon.com/xahlee

canhascodez 8y ago
I don't value contempt. I don't think that contempt is strongly associated with programming or computer science. I would consider that to be a problem. I can't condone the expression of contempt in the public discourse related to computer science. I do not typically have much free money for donations, but I would on principle refuse to financially support contempt. I would wonder that anyone would consider that a positive trait. I certainly think that this attitude would discourage newcomers to the field, and I think it's worth working to promote a different image and mindset.
- emmanueloga_ 8y ago
  I'm not suggesting that you support "contempt", but the person behind the writings, and only if you enjoy the writing style. Also, Xah also has all sorts of other documents were he carefully tries to avoid the mistakes he criticizes in other documents, and were contempt is not the main driver. I'm sure he spent countless hours writing those materials and he's made those documents available for absolutely free! [1] The best intellectual and artistic endeavors are deeply flavored by the emotions of their authors, which gives the works a measure of authenticity. I personally can appreciate that, the same way I can also appreciate a lot of forms of dark humor. Also, I'm OK with others not sharing that appreciation. 1: http://xahlee.info/comp/comp_lang_tutorials_index.html http://xahlee.info/comp/comp_lang_tutorials_index.html