7 ms·

From a European point of view, this whole thread is surreal. Your hand is crushed or your fingers are severed, you are sent to the ER in an Ambulance. This is

by gutnor 8y ago

From a European point of view, this whole thread is surreal. Your hand is crushed or your fingers are severed, you are sent to the ER in an Ambulance. This is impressive how far the US has normalised the concept that health is primarily a financial decision. Especially in the HN bubble that consists mostly of wealthy individuals.

crankylinuxuser 8y ago
This is what libertarian and 'eliminate regulation' types want. Human life isn't worth anything if the people can't use legal means to protect themselves. For these US citizens (SV elite), healthcare is akin to a status symbol or a luxury that only rich people or people bestowed by the rich (think: employment) should be able to attain. And then look at how much hatred there was when Obama tried to implement the Heritage Foundations plan, which was done by Mitt Romney in Massuchusetts. Republican, btw. These people really don't care about the "rest of us". That's why Trump was elected. He showed he had the similar hatred and focused it. Don't get me wrong- he's done horrible for the US... But that's why. EDIT: I would love to hear a description why I'm wrong. I've lived through the creation of Obamacare, my diabetes T2 diagnosis under it, and now the structured destruction of it, along with trying to eliminate 'preexisting conditions' exception. In short, if they get their way, I'll be dead sooner. Like 10 years sooner. Lack of health care + diabetes = death sentence. But in the end, having us "dead weights" dying isn't a bad thing when you boil us down to $$$.
- rjplatte 8y ago
  > This is what libertarian and 'eliminate regulation' types want. False. Healthcare is not a human right, but the insane inflation of healthcare costs would be avoided by removing a large portion of the regulation surrounding it. If hospitals actually had to compete to get patients, based on affordability, among other factors, healthcare would be far cheaper, and private charity/need-sharing would take the place of insurance.
  - vernie 8y ago
    Hot dog, there's a cheaper ER 30 minutes from here!
    - DuskStar 8y ago
      I can certainly imagine situations when I would choose waiting another 30 minutes over paying an extra $10k... Can't you?
      - vernie 8y ago
        Ooh, THIS one reuses sharps and passes the savings on to me!
    - mcguire 8y ago
      Yeah, but this one provides free mosswort and radium supplements with all limb reattachments!
    - devcpp 8y ago
      Communism would have all ERs equally shitty and expensive [to the taxpayer]. Is that all that better? I mean, your argument holds true for everything. And yet, look around us and compare to any instance of communism on various extents. Capitalism is always better.
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        > I mean, your argument holds true for everything. And yet, look around us and compare to any instance of communism on various extents. Capitalism is always better. Modern mixed economies are better, but there is a reason capitalism as a system (rather than a component of another system) died sooner than Soviet-style communism, to the extent that we now unironically call mixed economies with large socialized elements “capitalism”. Among mixed economies, it's not the more strongly capitalist ones that have the most efficient, effective, or publicly popular health care systems, either.
      - vernie 8y ago
- qudat 8y ago
  > This is what libertarian and 'eliminate regulation' types want. This statement is incorrect. Libertarians want competition in the emergency medical transport industry. If someone can offer a better service and at a lower cost, then that service should be an option. All other things being equal, if it takes an ambulance 20 minutes to arrive on scene versus a ride share that takes 5 minutes, which is preferred? Granted ambulances provide more than simply transporting someone to a hospital, but those services could easily be applied under legal alternatives and done in a safe, effective, and efficient manner. The libertarian argument is that it should not be illegal to let the market provide alternatives.
- rconti 8y ago
  I'm perplexed by why you think the SV elite voted in donald trump to keep the dirty masses down. Perhaps you should look at a county-by-county electoral map some day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_California,_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_ele...
blablabla123 8y ago
Precisely, I mean for sparsely Trainer personell it’s Not Even allowed to give Aspirin because some people are allergic to it.
FussyZeus 8y ago
Normalization has nothing to do with it. Americans at large didn't choose this, nor are we comfortable with it, we're simply stuck under it with no perceptible solution to it and we have to accept the financial consequences of medical choices because to not is to invite bankruptcy.
- aplummer 8y ago
  > under it with no perceptible solution It’s to vote, convince and then copy the model from every other 1st world country... super hard sure but perceptible
  - FussyZeus 8y ago
    Oh so "just adopt universal healthcare," it's so simple, I can't imagine why no one's attempted it.
  - conanbatt 8y ago
    Or apply the ideas used in all other markets in the same country that work incredibly well.
anigbrowl 8y ago
Here people refuse ambulance rides in some circumstances because as soon as they take you somewhere it's $2-3000 dollars. Bonus injustice: emergency medical technicians are generally poorly paid. I have a friend who works as an EMT trainer because he can't afford to live on what he'd get paid if he were actually working in an ambulance.
birdman3131 8y ago
From a USA standpoint the thread is almost as surreal. You either call an ambulance or drive them yourselves. At no point would it ever come up to send them in a taxi where I work. Now depending on the issue it is faster to drive/be driven from where I work so an ambulance is often not that useful. For example a while back a coworker ate a tamale off the food truck only to find out that it contained peanuts. After noticing the reaction the owner took him to the ER personally (Coworker used his epipen as soon as it was known he needed it.) It is ~8 mins by car and at best an ambulance would have been 6 here and 6 back for an arrival time of 12 minutes. Now had they not been breathing they probably could have gotten a fire truck here in 2-3 mins to administer some epinephrine but they would still have had to wait the same 12 minutes to make it to the hospital because the fire truck EMT's can only do on site treatment. So unless it is extremely dire taking a coworker to the hospital can be faster than an ambulance. That said a crushed hand or cut off finger? That is one of those where seconds matter and the fire truck/ambulance combo would be used.
- JshWright 8y ago
  > That said a crushed hand or cut off finger? That is one of those where seconds matter and the fire truck/ambulance combo would be used. Unless there is uncontrolled bleeding that is definitely not a "seconds matter" situation. Sure, you want to get to a surgeon sooner rather than later, but an extra 5 minutes isn't going to matter.
  - sinker 8y ago
    How do you suspect fingers become severed? As if intentionally with surgical precision? Or by more violently messy and accidental means? Do you think only a trickle of blood comes out when one of your whole digits becomes separated from your hand? How certain are you that "5 minutes" isn't going to matter in most cases? And how certain are you that in most cases there won't be "uncontrolled bleeding?" Where do you even begin to make that sort of claim?
    - JshWright 8y ago
      Fingers that are torn or crushed don't tend to bleed much, in my experience. The ragged edges of the injury site make for quick clotting.
hef19898 8y ago
So true! Since I follow US politics more closely (2016, roughly), I realize how damn good life is in Europe for the average joe. I just skipped through the comments, and the fact that hardly anybody points out the fact that an employer should care for his employees and follow all applicable regulations is mind boggling. But it could also point to a general issue regarding SV and SV-style disruption. Build a business around ignoring existing regulations, because of disruption.
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  It's an extremely selfish country. Some people are less than others and deserve less is exactly the mindset in USA now. HN appears to have a more highly paid engineer out-of-touch with financial reality user base, it's not everyone, and I don't think they're doing it on purpose, but it's certainly noticeable. Even on my barely-enough-to-live wage in Seattle it's tough to not find myself forgetting the struggles of people lower in class than I. Workers rights are not popular here, and I'm guessing it's because engineers and higher paid people are often treated pretty fairly and have workplace freedoms the rest of the workforce could only ever imagine in their dreams.
  - hef19898 8y ago
    True that. I dis not mean that people think likevthat on purpose. For me, I can now appreciate much more what previous generations did in Europe regarding workers rights and civil rights. I took all of that more or less for granted in the firsz world, but it isn't. No suprise back the day these fights has to be litterally taken to the streets. I'm happy people did that. Also zrue that a person tends to stay in their own social bubble, I do it myself. Lucky me I don't have to worry about money most of the time. But that doesn't mean that you cannot be aware of others that are not in that situation. Not that I care about that often enough. Again something I realized lately.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  > I just skipped through the comments, and the fact that hardly anybody points out the fact that an employer should care for his employees and follow all applicable regulations is mind boggling. Bear in mind that europe also has 10%+ unemployment.
writepub 8y ago
There's nothing American about not using ER/Ambulance services. FYI - the employee still keeps his rights to call 911 on his own volition. This is in no way a defense of Tesla's on-site medical facility's policy of not calling 911 without authorization, but the location of Tesla (U.S.A) is not somehow responsible for draconian policies, nor is it fair to assume that if Tesla operated in the EU, such policies wouldn't exist. FYI - from the way the article paints it, Tesla's policies are in clear violation of U.S. law.
prolikewh0a 8y ago
It's the way USA rations healthcare. I've had serious knee injuries from biking this summer that I had to decide to just 'walk off' because I don't have the finances to go to a doctor, get an MRI/Xray, potentially more tests. My knees are probably screwed for life now. I feel like a good portion of the USA is going to be deformed because they can't get quality health care or avoid it at all. It's really weird having to decide that your finances and rent are more fragile than your health. My insurance for an ER visit would be roughly $4500 right when I walked in, or they wouldn't cover anything. Every time after that though would be $300 until next year when I'd have to pay $4500 again.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  Reducing health care costs should be the #1 priority in america. Whatever achieves that will make drastic changes for the better in both incomes and quality of life. It is the KEY issue. There's unfortunately no consensus on how to solve it.
conanbatt 8y ago
From a cost stand-point, an ambulance ride in the US might be 10x the cost of an ambulance in european countries. At that price point some decisions start to become serious trade-offs.

by gutnor 8y ago

crankylinuxuser 8y ago

This is what libertarian and 'eliminate regulation' types want. Human life isn't worth anything if the people can't use legal means to protect themselves. For these US citizens (SV elite), healthcare is akin to a status symbol or a luxury that only rich people or people bestowed by the rich (think: employment) should be able to attain. And then look at how much hatred there was when Obama tried to implement the Heritage Foundations plan, which was done by Mitt Romney in Massuchusetts. Republican, btw. These people really don't care about the "rest of us". That's why Trump was elected. He showed he had the similar hatred and focused it. Don't get me wrong- he's done horrible for the US... But that's why. EDIT: I would love to hear a description why I'm wrong. I've lived through the creation of Obamacare, my diabetes T2 diagnosis under it, and now the structured destruction of it, along with trying to eliminate 'preexisting conditions' exception. In short, if they get their way, I'll be dead sooner. Like 10 years sooner. Lack of health care + diabetes = death sentence. But in the end, having us "dead weights" dying isn't a bad thing when you boil us down to $$$.

rjplatte 8y ago
> This is what libertarian and 'eliminate regulation' types want. False. Healthcare is not a human right, but the insane inflation of healthcare costs would be avoided by removing a large portion of the regulation surrounding it. If hospitals actually had to compete to get patients, based on affordability, among other factors, healthcare would be far cheaper, and private charity/need-sharing would take the place of insurance.
- vernie 8y ago
  Hot dog, there's a cheaper ER 30 minutes from here!
  - DuskStar 8y ago
    I can certainly imagine situations when I would choose waiting another 30 minutes over paying an extra $10k... Can't you?
    - vernie 8y ago
      Ooh, THIS one reuses sharps and passes the savings on to me!
  - mcguire 8y ago
    Yeah, but this one provides free mosswort and radium supplements with all limb reattachments!
  - devcpp 8y ago
    Communism would have all ERs equally shitty and expensive [to the taxpayer]. Is that all that better? I mean, your argument holds true for everything. And yet, look around us and compare to any instance of communism on various extents. Capitalism is always better.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > I mean, your argument holds true for everything. And yet, look around us and compare to any instance of communism on various extents. Capitalism is always better. Modern mixed economies are better, but there is a reason capitalism as a system (rather than a component of another system) died sooner than Soviet-style communism, to the extent that we now unironically call mixed economies with large socialized elements “capitalism”. Among mixed economies, it's not the more strongly capitalist ones that have the most efficient, effective, or publicly popular health care systems, either.
    - vernie 8y ago
qudat 8y ago
> This is what libertarian and 'eliminate regulation' types want. This statement is incorrect. Libertarians want competition in the emergency medical transport industry. If someone can offer a better service and at a lower cost, then that service should be an option. All other things being equal, if it takes an ambulance 20 minutes to arrive on scene versus a ride share that takes 5 minutes, which is preferred? Granted ambulances provide more than simply transporting someone to a hospital, but those services could easily be applied under legal alternatives and done in a safe, effective, and efficient manner. The libertarian argument is that it should not be illegal to let the market provide alternatives.
rconti 8y ago
I'm perplexed by why you think the SV elite voted in donald trump to keep the dirty masses down. Perhaps you should look at a county-by-county electoral map some day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_California,_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_ele...

blablabla123 8y ago

Precisely, I mean for sparsely Trainer personell it’s Not Even allowed to give Aspirin because some people are allergic to it.

FussyZeus 8y ago

Normalization has nothing to do with it. Americans at large didn't choose this, nor are we comfortable with it, we're simply stuck under it with no perceptible solution to it and we have to accept the financial consequences of medical choices because to not is to invite bankruptcy.

aplummer 8y ago
> under it with no perceptible solution It’s to vote, convince and then copy the model from every other 1st world country... super hard sure but perceptible
- FussyZeus 8y ago
  Oh so "just adopt universal healthcare," it's so simple, I can't imagine why no one's attempted it.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  Or apply the ideas used in all other markets in the same country that work incredibly well.

anigbrowl 8y ago

Here people refuse ambulance rides in some circumstances because as soon as they take you somewhere it's $2-3000 dollars. Bonus injustice: emergency medical technicians are generally poorly paid. I have a friend who works as an EMT trainer because he can't afford to live on what he'd get paid if he were actually working in an ambulance.

birdman3131 8y ago

From a USA standpoint the thread is almost as surreal. You either call an ambulance or drive them yourselves. At no point would it ever come up to send them in a taxi where I work. Now depending on the issue it is faster to drive/be driven from where I work so an ambulance is often not that useful. For example a while back a coworker ate a tamale off the food truck only to find out that it contained peanuts. After noticing the reaction the owner took him to the ER personally (Coworker used his epipen as soon as it was known he needed it.) It is ~8 mins by car and at best an ambulance would have been 6 here and 6 back for an arrival time of 12 minutes. Now had they not been breathing they probably could have gotten a fire truck here in 2-3 mins to administer some epinephrine but they would still have had to wait the same 12 minutes to make it to the hospital because the fire truck EMT's can only do on site treatment. So unless it is extremely dire taking a coworker to the hospital can be faster than an ambulance. That said a crushed hand or cut off finger? That is one of those where seconds matter and the fire truck/ambulance combo would be used.

JshWright 8y ago
> That said a crushed hand or cut off finger? That is one of those where seconds matter and the fire truck/ambulance combo would be used. Unless there is uncontrolled bleeding that is definitely not a "seconds matter" situation. Sure, you want to get to a surgeon sooner rather than later, but an extra 5 minutes isn't going to matter.
- sinker 8y ago
  How do you suspect fingers become severed? As if intentionally with surgical precision? Or by more violently messy and accidental means? Do you think only a trickle of blood comes out when one of your whole digits becomes separated from your hand? How certain are you that "5 minutes" isn't going to matter in most cases? And how certain are you that in most cases there won't be "uncontrolled bleeding?" Where do you even begin to make that sort of claim?
  - JshWright 8y ago
    Fingers that are torn or crushed don't tend to bleed much, in my experience. The ragged edges of the injury site make for quick clotting.

hef19898 8y ago

So true! Since I follow US politics more closely (2016, roughly), I realize how damn good life is in Europe for the average joe. I just skipped through the comments, and the fact that hardly anybody points out the fact that an employer should care for his employees and follow all applicable regulations is mind boggling. But it could also point to a general issue regarding SV and SV-style disruption. Build a business around ignoring existing regulations, because of disruption.

prolikewh0a 8y ago
It's an extremely selfish country. Some people are less than others and deserve less is exactly the mindset in USA now. HN appears to have a more highly paid engineer out-of-touch with financial reality user base, it's not everyone, and I don't think they're doing it on purpose, but it's certainly noticeable. Even on my barely-enough-to-live wage in Seattle it's tough to not find myself forgetting the struggles of people lower in class than I. Workers rights are not popular here, and I'm guessing it's because engineers and higher paid people are often treated pretty fairly and have workplace freedoms the rest of the workforce could only ever imagine in their dreams.
- hef19898 8y ago
  True that. I dis not mean that people think likevthat on purpose. For me, I can now appreciate much more what previous generations did in Europe regarding workers rights and civil rights. I took all of that more or less for granted in the firsz world, but it isn't. No suprise back the day these fights has to be litterally taken to the streets. I'm happy people did that. Also zrue that a person tends to stay in their own social bubble, I do it myself. Lucky me I don't have to worry about money most of the time. But that doesn't mean that you cannot be aware of others that are not in that situation. Not that I care about that often enough. Again something I realized lately.
conanbatt 8y ago
> I just skipped through the comments, and the fact that hardly anybody points out the fact that an employer should care for his employees and follow all applicable regulations is mind boggling. Bear in mind that europe also has 10%+ unemployment.

writepub 8y ago

There's nothing American about not using ER/Ambulance services. FYI - the employee still keeps his rights to call 911 on his own volition. This is in no way a defense of Tesla's on-site medical facility's policy of not calling 911 without authorization, but the location of Tesla (U.S.A) is not somehow responsible for draconian policies, nor is it fair to assume that if Tesla operated in the EU, such policies wouldn't exist. FYI - from the way the article paints it, Tesla's policies are in clear violation of U.S. law.

prolikewh0a 8y ago

It's the way USA rations healthcare. I've had serious knee injuries from biking this summer that I had to decide to just 'walk off' because I don't have the finances to go to a doctor, get an MRI/Xray, potentially more tests. My knees are probably screwed for life now. I feel like a good portion of the USA is going to be deformed because they can't get quality health care or avoid it at all. It's really weird having to decide that your finances and rent are more fragile than your health. My insurance for an ER visit would be roughly $4500 right when I walked in, or they wouldn't cover anything. Every time after that though would be $300 until next year when I'd have to pay $4500 again.

conanbatt 8y ago
Reducing health care costs should be the #1 priority in america. Whatever achieves that will make drastic changes for the better in both incomes and quality of life. It is the KEY issue. There's unfortunately no consensus on how to solve it.

conanbatt 8y ago

From a cost stand-point, an ambulance ride in the US might be 10x the cost of an ambulance in european countries. At that price point some decisions start to become serious trade-offs.