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I guess we're supposed to be upset because they didn't call an ambulance for workers who were feeling light headed, or had crushed or severed fingers. These are

I guess we're supposed to be upset because they didn't call an ambulance for workers who were feeling light headed, or had crushed or severed fingers. These are the examples provided, and it isn't stuff you need to call an ambulance for. And I'm a big Tesla critic, I get really excited when there's a Tesla scandal, but this article is a baseless hit piece. The concrete examples they provided were dealt with appropriately and the rest is pretty nebulous.

zimpenfish 8y ago
> I guess we're supposed to be upset because they didn't call an ambulance for workers who were feeling light headed, or had crushed or severed fingers. (added emph) Um, yeah, I would be. > it isn't stuff you need to call an ambulance for If you crush or sever your fingers, you really do need to call an ambulance.
- StavrosK 8y ago
  Why? Why do you need the equipment in an ambulance for a crushed or severed hand? Wouldn't you be better served in literally halving the time it took for you to get to the hospital (driving one way vs waiting for the ambulance to come pick you up) so you can be treated there?
  - athenot 8y ago
    Ambulances don't come from the hospital. They are stationed a bit all over and listen for emergencies. They also listen on the police scanners and can get to an emergency before actually being requested. The gas station right next to my house has EMT vehicles almost every night hanging out and waiting to interveene in the area.
- loceng 8y ago
  You need to get them to the hospital ASAP - yes, where doctors can start to work on the finger(s). I can't imagine they are going to do anything in the ambulance that the doctors on-site at Tesla aren't capable of stabilizing/prepping for care at a hospital.
- kryogen1c 8y ago
  > > it isn't stuff you need to call an ambulance for > If you crush or sever your fingers, you really do need to call an ambulance. Why? It's not life threatening, you're diverting critical life-saving public resources from someone else, you can definitely get to a hospital faster on your own and probably faster with a ride share, and you are incurring a very high cost. Furthermore, it's not like they get to the hospital and then are seen immediately because they showed up in an ambulance. They still have to wait in line because the injury is simply not severe If they have first responders on site, there's no reason they can't get gauze and then go see a surgeon.
  - anigbrowl 8y ago
    It's not life threatening Questionable you're diverting critical life-saving public resources from someone else Why, do we have a desperate shortage of such resources? Then maybe we should build more of them instead of guilt tripping people who have suffered severe and perhaps permanent maiming. Furthermore, it's not like they get to the hospital and then are seen immediately because they showed up in an ambulance. They still have to wait in line because the injury is simply not severe Of course it's severe. It's not the worst thing that can happen to someone, but then ERs aren't swamped 24/7 either, and to the extent that they are overburdened we should do something about that rather than minimize the problem.
- wanderr 8y ago
  As someone who suffered a crushed finger accident as a teenager and did not take an ambulance to the ER, I really really wish that I had. Ambulance = immediate admittance, rather than waiting for 8 hours only to be told that you need to see the specialist who has gone home for the day.
  - kryogen1c 8y ago
    > Ambulance = immediate admittance This is not true. Patients arriving in ambulances are triaged and helped according to need, just like anyone else.
    - justin66 8y ago
      > Patients arriving in ambulances are triaged and helped according to need, just like anyone else. This is something rather commonly stated and it's observably not true. I wonder what that's about, but I suspect it's a case of the way things are supposed to work (triage in the emergency room is supposed to not suck, but it's usually so bad that it is the weakest link in a patient's emergency care, even at a good hospital) and the way things actually work (riding in on the ambulance gets you in front of a doctor faster very close to 100% of the time).
    - wanderr 8y ago
      That's not what I was told by a doctor working at the hospital.
- JshWright 8y ago
  > If you crush or sever your fingers, you really do need to call an ambulance. Paramedic here... If the bleeding is controlled, there's not really anything an ambulance is going to do other than give you an expensive ride to the hospital. Counting dispatch/response/on scene time, you'd likely get to the hospital just as quickly if someone drove you in their personal vehicle. I'm not defending Tesla's practices here... I'm far more concerned about the other cases mentioned (workers passing out, feeling dizzy, etc).
  - adrianN 8y ago
    Yeah unless there is a traffic jam on the way, then you're fucked in your Uber.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      This is a good point, with the caveat that it's roughly 5 miles to two hospitals north of the Fremont factory. If traffic is terrible, an ambulance should be called; otherwise, a Lyft vs ambulance will make no difference.
      - JshWright 8y ago
        An ambulance isn't going to make much difference in gridlocked traffic anyway. They're not going to use the lights and sirens for a stable patient.
        Retric 8y ago
        Crushing injuries can result in life threatening issues even if someone appears stable. Clot or hemorrhage can go from everything looking ok to serious very quickly. Ambulances are low risk and cheap somthey really should be used even down to ~0.1% chances of serious issues.
        JshWright 8y ago
        I am a paramedic. If someone with a crushing injury to their hand is otherwise stable, I am not going to be headed to the hospital with the lights and sirens on. If the injury is higher (with the potential for compartment syndrome distal to the injury site, or closer to major blood vessels), then sure, I may be in a bit more of a hurry (a "bit" being the operative word there... slow is smooth, smooth is fast).
- Fricken 8y ago
  You didn't provide a rationale for your position, and I don't think you have one. You just get squeamish thinking about this stuff. For stuff like that there's nothing a paramedic will do that someone with basic first aid can't do. Until the victim is in surgery, there isn't a whole lot to do. Staunch the bleeding. Put the severed finger on ice. That's about it. Maybe you don't have much experience working in factories and shops where these sorts of accidents happen several times a year, but it's a gross overreaction to call medical professionals in. Once, in this shop this guy was cleaning out a paint mixer, and it somehow turned on while he had his arm in there. The mixing blade ripped his arm open, down to the bone from his shoulder to his wrist. We called an ambulance for that. What a mess, lol.
PhasmaFelis 8y ago
> crushed or severed fingers [...] isn't stuff you need to call an ambulance for. What?
- loceng 8y ago
  In the context of there being doctors on-site at Tesla who would be assessing/caring for the injured person, if the person is stable/stabilized and the severity of the injury requires treatment at a hospital (say surgery but they're not bleeding out etc) - just getting them to the hospital in a reasonable manner should be the goal, yes? We can make assumptions about what would take longer to get to the workplace and then to the hospital - a Lyft nearby or an ambulance who perhaps has to travel further.
  - danso 8y ago
    A severed finger is a pretty serious and catastrophic injury. You think workplace clinic has the ability stabilize that kind of injury, such that there's little difference between a 10 minute and a 30 minute trip to the hospital? Don't you there's a better outcome than the patient not bleeding to death, like getting to a surgeon ASAP to increase the chances of a successful reattachment surgery? Besides the dickishness of pressing a typical Uber/Lyft driver into emergency service, ambulances have other advantages, such as the legal authority to speed and clear roads, and on-board medical equipment to continue stabilizing the patient during the trip.
    - loceng 8y ago
      Like I said, we can make assumptions about travel time difference between Lyft and an ambulance - however unless we're in the actual scenario and know the circumstances, and likely times/estimates for each, a private driver can certainly be faster than when an ambulance can arrive (and likewise what is the indirect cost if not using that ambulance means someone else gets an ambulance faster who more reasonably needs it?).
      - danso 8y ago
primitivesuave 8y ago
An EMT friend told me that the best times to call an ambulance are when you need immediate medical attention, if it would take you much longer to get to the hospital yourself, or if there's a reasonable chance you would distract the driver (e.g. screaming pregnant woman, someone heaving and clawing for air during an asthma attack). While having broken/severed fingers sounds awful, I would probably make the same call (take this as hearsay + a non-medical opinion)

zimpenfish 8y ago

> I guess we're supposed to be upset because they didn't call an ambulance for workers who were feeling light headed, or had crushed or severed fingers. (added emph) Um, yeah, I would be. > it isn't stuff you need to call an ambulance for If you crush or sever your fingers, you really do need to call an ambulance.

StavrosK 8y ago
Why? Why do you need the equipment in an ambulance for a crushed or severed hand? Wouldn't you be better served in literally halving the time it took for you to get to the hospital (driving one way vs waiting for the ambulance to come pick you up) so you can be treated there?
- athenot 8y ago
  Ambulances don't come from the hospital. They are stationed a bit all over and listen for emergencies. They also listen on the police scanners and can get to an emergency before actually being requested. The gas station right next to my house has EMT vehicles almost every night hanging out and waiting to interveene in the area.
loceng 8y ago
You need to get them to the hospital ASAP - yes, where doctors can start to work on the finger(s). I can't imagine they are going to do anything in the ambulance that the doctors on-site at Tesla aren't capable of stabilizing/prepping for care at a hospital.
kryogen1c 8y ago
> > it isn't stuff you need to call an ambulance for > If you crush or sever your fingers, you really do need to call an ambulance. Why? It's not life threatening, you're diverting critical life-saving public resources from someone else, you can definitely get to a hospital faster on your own and probably faster with a ride share, and you are incurring a very high cost. Furthermore, it's not like they get to the hospital and then are seen immediately because they showed up in an ambulance. They still have to wait in line because the injury is simply not severe If they have first responders on site, there's no reason they can't get gauze and then go see a surgeon.
- anigbrowl 8y ago
  It's not life threatening Questionable you're diverting critical life-saving public resources from someone else Why, do we have a desperate shortage of such resources? Then maybe we should build more of them instead of guilt tripping people who have suffered severe and perhaps permanent maiming. Furthermore, it's not like they get to the hospital and then are seen immediately because they showed up in an ambulance. They still have to wait in line because the injury is simply not severe Of course it's severe. It's not the worst thing that can happen to someone, but then ERs aren't swamped 24/7 either, and to the extent that they are overburdened we should do something about that rather than minimize the problem.
wanderr 8y ago
As someone who suffered a crushed finger accident as a teenager and did not take an ambulance to the ER, I really really wish that I had. Ambulance = immediate admittance, rather than waiting for 8 hours only to be told that you need to see the specialist who has gone home for the day.
- kryogen1c 8y ago
  > Ambulance = immediate admittance This is not true. Patients arriving in ambulances are triaged and helped according to need, just like anyone else.
  - justin66 8y ago
    > Patients arriving in ambulances are triaged and helped according to need, just like anyone else. This is something rather commonly stated and it's observably not true. I wonder what that's about, but I suspect it's a case of the way things are supposed to work (triage in the emergency room is supposed to not suck, but it's usually so bad that it is the weakest link in a patient's emergency care, even at a good hospital) and the way things actually work (riding in on the ambulance gets you in front of a doctor faster very close to 100% of the time).
  - wanderr 8y ago
    That's not what I was told by a doctor working at the hospital.
JshWright 8y ago
> If you crush or sever your fingers, you really do need to call an ambulance. Paramedic here... If the bleeding is controlled, there's not really anything an ambulance is going to do other than give you an expensive ride to the hospital. Counting dispatch/response/on scene time, you'd likely get to the hospital just as quickly if someone drove you in their personal vehicle. I'm not defending Tesla's practices here... I'm far more concerned about the other cases mentioned (workers passing out, feeling dizzy, etc).
- adrianN 8y ago
  Yeah unless there is a traffic jam on the way, then you're fucked in your Uber.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    This is a good point, with the caveat that it's roughly 5 miles to two hospitals north of the Fremont factory. If traffic is terrible, an ambulance should be called; otherwise, a Lyft vs ambulance will make no difference.
    - JshWright 8y ago
      An ambulance isn't going to make much difference in gridlocked traffic anyway. They're not going to use the lights and sirens for a stable patient.
      - Retric 8y ago
        Crushing injuries can result in life threatening issues even if someone appears stable. Clot or hemorrhage can go from everything looking ok to serious very quickly. Ambulances are low risk and cheap somthey really should be used even down to ~0.1% chances of serious issues.
        JshWright 8y ago
        I am a paramedic. If someone with a crushing injury to their hand is otherwise stable, I am not going to be headed to the hospital with the lights and sirens on. If the injury is higher (with the potential for compartment syndrome distal to the injury site, or closer to major blood vessels), then sure, I may be in a bit more of a hurry (a "bit" being the operative word there... slow is smooth, smooth is fast).
Fricken 8y ago
You didn't provide a rationale for your position, and I don't think you have one. You just get squeamish thinking about this stuff. For stuff like that there's nothing a paramedic will do that someone with basic first aid can't do. Until the victim is in surgery, there isn't a whole lot to do. Staunch the bleeding. Put the severed finger on ice. That's about it. Maybe you don't have much experience working in factories and shops where these sorts of accidents happen several times a year, but it's a gross overreaction to call medical professionals in. Once, in this shop this guy was cleaning out a paint mixer, and it somehow turned on while he had his arm in there. The mixing blade ripped his arm open, down to the bone from his shoulder to his wrist. We called an ambulance for that. What a mess, lol.

PhasmaFelis 8y ago

> crushed or severed fingers [...] isn't stuff you need to call an ambulance for. What?

loceng 8y ago
In the context of there being doctors on-site at Tesla who would be assessing/caring for the injured person, if the person is stable/stabilized and the severity of the injury requires treatment at a hospital (say surgery but they're not bleeding out etc) - just getting them to the hospital in a reasonable manner should be the goal, yes? We can make assumptions about what would take longer to get to the workplace and then to the hospital - a Lyft nearby or an ambulance who perhaps has to travel further.
- danso 8y ago
  A severed finger is a pretty serious and catastrophic injury. You think workplace clinic has the ability stabilize that kind of injury, such that there's little difference between a 10 minute and a 30 minute trip to the hospital? Don't you there's a better outcome than the patient not bleeding to death, like getting to a surgeon ASAP to increase the chances of a successful reattachment surgery? Besides the dickishness of pressing a typical Uber/Lyft driver into emergency service, ambulances have other advantages, such as the legal authority to speed and clear roads, and on-board medical equipment to continue stabilizing the patient during the trip.
  - loceng 8y ago
    Like I said, we can make assumptions about travel time difference between Lyft and an ambulance - however unless we're in the actual scenario and know the circumstances, and likely times/estimates for each, a private driver can certainly be faster than when an ambulance can arrive (and likewise what is the indirect cost if not using that ambulance means someone else gets an ambulance faster who more reasonably needs it?).
    - danso 8y ago

primitivesuave 8y ago

An EMT friend told me that the best times to call an ambulance are when you need immediate medical attention, if it would take you much longer to get to the hospital yourself, or if there's a reasonable chance you would distract the driver (e.g. screaming pregnant woman, someone heaving and clawing for air during an asthma attack). While having broken/severed fingers sounds awful, I would probably make the same call (take this as hearsay + a non-medical opinion)