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I am a big Tesla fan but if this is true and does not improve shortly, then screw this company. I’ve dreamt of buying a Tesla but I could not ethically rationa

I am a big Tesla fan but if this is true and does not improve shortly, then screw this company. I’ve dreamt of buying a Tesla but I could not ethically rationalize that to myself if this article is true. It also shows the problem of measuring companies by specific metrics. It sounds like good old “juking the stats” (the wire). It gives the impression that things actually end up worse because of how injuries are measured.

commonsense1234 8y ago
one less in the long waitlist. thank you. But, if what is being reported by this site is true. I hope the workers are well compensated for their trauma.
loceng 8y ago
Here's a response horseRad posted that comes from Tesla's side - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18389796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18389796 - and that is from https://electrek.co/2018/11/06/tesla-fremont-factory-clinic-reveal-worrying-report-doctor-denies/ https://electrek.co/2018/11/06/tesla-fremont-factory-clinic-...
- bjl 8y ago
  That statement isn't exactly compelling. It just resorts to ad hominem attacks in an attempt to discredit a minor piece of the article, while deflecting/ignoring the major claims (like the worker with a crushed spine who was denied an ambulance because it would've shown up on OSHA logs). Also, this report was done by one of the most respectable investigative news organisations in the world. Its hard to see how the PR wing of a corporation that just settled with the SEC for fraud could be considered more trustworthy.
  - loceng 8y ago
    I was referencing the response from their doctor, where they have 24/7 doctors at their factory. I'm not sure if this answer is in anything posted, however: 1) is that claim of someone with a "crushed spine denied an ambulance" proven, and 2) is "because it would've shown up on OSHA logs" proven as Tesla's reasoning, or just conjecture and/or speculation? Likewise, why aren't people addressing that maybe an ambulance being called as the triggering something added to OSHA logs is incomplete or badly designed - and because Tesla has doctors on staff/on-site 24/7 for workers to go to first, maybe a visit to doctors should actually be the trigger adding the event to logs? Maybe the process is broken, but requiring an ambulance be called for a sprained wrist - if they trained doctors on staff to access the situation isn't reasonable, it certainly is an emotional reaction they're triggering in people though. "Also, this report was done by one of the most respectable investigative news organisations in the world." I've never heard of them and likewise - is this specific journalist (and perhaps the editor) known and associated with any awards the journal received?
    - bjl 8y ago
      > I'm not sure if this answer is in anything posted, however: 1) is that claim of someone with a "crushed spine denied an ambulance" proven, and 2) is "because it would've shown up on OSHA logs" proven as Tesla's reasoning, or just conjecture and/or speculation? 1) The source is named, and to be included in the article would've likely provided medical records backing up his assertions. Not to mention the fact that Tesla (which has previously demonstrated its willingness to go the media to try and discredit former employees) has not denied his claims. 2) There are multiple sources in the article that mention being taught by lawyers how to deny care in a way that avoids legal requirements to log incidents. > I've never heard of them and likewise That says more about you than the source, Reveal has broken a number of extremely important stories and won many awards for doing so. > is this specific journalist (and perhaps the editor) known and associated with any awards the journal received? You could've just clicked on the author's bio, but yes. "His reporting with a partner and CNN exposed rampant fraud in California's drug rehab system for the poor, winning an Investigative Reporters and Editors Award."
      - loceng 8y ago
        You conveniently ignored the main points of my response - and turned a reasonable question into a put down via "says more about you than the source." You seem to lack intellectual integrity, in case you don't realize that. Done engaging with you. :)
        mdorazio 8y ago
        This response was both hypocritical and immature. I'm disappointed by reading this thread.
        loceng 8y ago
        Okay, so what was hypocritical and immature about it? Please see bji's other responses in this thread, and perhaps mine, to get a fuller picture. If you have a strong argument point then perhaps you can make me aware of hypocrisy and immaturity - I hope you do so if it's true so I can learn, albeit and alas, most people don't put that effort in and instead make a quick response of simply sharing a loose feeling without deeper critical analysis to understand the situation and feelings in depth; this is in part a problem with the lack of tone in text. I was pointing out their ignoring of the main point of my responses, and pointing out their put down; pointing out a lack of intellectual integrity isn't a put down, whereas saying simply because I haven't heard of a source "says more about me than the source" is nonsensical. Likewise, letting them know I'm done engaging with them is better IMHO than "ghosting" them. How is there integrity in a conversation if someone simply uses put downs and ignores the one main countering point to a proposed solution? Perhaps a gentler or kinder way to put it is they're lacking intellectual honesty - in order to try to prove a point, and backing that up/reenforcing that with a put down.
- woah 8y ago
  Count Ioceng as another one of the workers wronged by Tesla- I doubt they’re even paying him for spamming this thread.
  - sctb 8y ago
    > Please don't impute astroturfing or shillage. That degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about it, email us and we'll look at the data. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dagss 8y ago
The clothing industry (or pretty much any low cost country manufacturing) is much much much worse than what is described here. Ubfortunately, people buy products produced by effectively torturing workers all the time. That doesn't in any way justify what Tesla is doing of course. Just pointing out that this is "peanuts" compared to other products that people do not tend to boycott. Wish there was a good solution. I try to buy fairtrade-marked goods when I can but the selection is limited as most people seem to not care. For cars, there is no measurement or guarantee that other brands are better that is easily available to me, especially if you include Asian subcontractors / parts producers.
robertAngst 8y ago
I was a big Tesla fan until- >A Tesla recruiter called me, high pressure tried to get me to move to California, ending in- "So you don't want to do anything important with your life?" >Elon's marketing team spam reddit and manip upvotes. This was my first wakeup call that we were being tricked >That Tesla =/= getting to Mars in 2023. >The Chevy Bolt was car of the year. Tesla's will be unreliable for ~10 years until they work out design related issues. (This is unavoidable for every new car company) >The horrid conditions of employees, seems like we are taking a step back in employee conditions in favor of 'progress'. >Manipulation of news, numbers, etc... make the company seem unethical. I still have Elon as my wallpaper, with a motivation phrase telling me to "Get to work". But I've sobered up, he was a cult of personality.
- loceng 8y ago
  I'd hope that "So you don't want to do anything important with your life?" wasn't in a script, and was an individual recruiter being a manipulative asshole - and once this was found out about by management (and hopefully they investigated and could find out who said it) the recruiter was then told to not say such thing again - and fired if they did. I can't really reply to anything else you posted, there's reasonable counter-points to all of it. You shouldn't blindly trust any one source of course, and excitement/emotion for someone or an organization doing something good can prevent use from critical thinking. At the same time, it's important to understand what it means for a company to be the most shorted stock in history - and the amount of effort, and financial gain, that will come to people purposely trying to put down Tesla et al. Good can come from this process if everyone involved is being reasonable. Is it good that someone who asked for an ambulance to go to the hospital, instead after an assessment by an onsite doctor, were said to take a Lyft? It clearly wasn't life threatening in that doctor's eyes to require the life-stabilizing ability/necessity of an ambulance - I suppose that person sharing their story might not be talking to us then today. Likewise, is the issue that Tesla is purposefully trying to avoid "an ambulance being called" to avoid a log in OSHA records? I doubt it, however this does highlight that the processes and requirements for OSHA likely need to be updated: so that if there are on-site doctors who do an assessment, then that also gets into the log. I imagine it's more likely an incomplete/inadequate process of reporting because how many work places have on-site doctors 24/7? Not very many I'm guessing.

commonsense1234 8y ago

one less in the long waitlist. thank you. But, if what is being reported by this site is true. I hope the workers are well compensated for their trauma.

loceng 8y ago

Here's a response horseRad posted that comes from Tesla's side - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18389796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18389796 - and that is from https://electrek.co/2018/11/06/tesla-fremont-factory-clinic-reveal-worrying-report-doctor-denies/ https://electrek.co/2018/11/06/tesla-fremont-factory-clinic-...

bjl 8y ago
That statement isn't exactly compelling. It just resorts to ad hominem attacks in an attempt to discredit a minor piece of the article, while deflecting/ignoring the major claims (like the worker with a crushed spine who was denied an ambulance because it would've shown up on OSHA logs). Also, this report was done by one of the most respectable investigative news organisations in the world. Its hard to see how the PR wing of a corporation that just settled with the SEC for fraud could be considered more trustworthy.
- loceng 8y ago
  I was referencing the response from their doctor, where they have 24/7 doctors at their factory. I'm not sure if this answer is in anything posted, however: 1) is that claim of someone with a "crushed spine denied an ambulance" proven, and 2) is "because it would've shown up on OSHA logs" proven as Tesla's reasoning, or just conjecture and/or speculation? Likewise, why aren't people addressing that maybe an ambulance being called as the triggering something added to OSHA logs is incomplete or badly designed - and because Tesla has doctors on staff/on-site 24/7 for workers to go to first, maybe a visit to doctors should actually be the trigger adding the event to logs? Maybe the process is broken, but requiring an ambulance be called for a sprained wrist - if they trained doctors on staff to access the situation isn't reasonable, it certainly is an emotional reaction they're triggering in people though. "Also, this report was done by one of the most respectable investigative news organisations in the world." I've never heard of them and likewise - is this specific journalist (and perhaps the editor) known and associated with any awards the journal received?
  - bjl 8y ago
    > I'm not sure if this answer is in anything posted, however: 1) is that claim of someone with a "crushed spine denied an ambulance" proven, and 2) is "because it would've shown up on OSHA logs" proven as Tesla's reasoning, or just conjecture and/or speculation? 1) The source is named, and to be included in the article would've likely provided medical records backing up his assertions. Not to mention the fact that Tesla (which has previously demonstrated its willingness to go the media to try and discredit former employees) has not denied his claims. 2) There are multiple sources in the article that mention being taught by lawyers how to deny care in a way that avoids legal requirements to log incidents. > I've never heard of them and likewise That says more about you than the source, Reveal has broken a number of extremely important stories and won many awards for doing so. > is this specific journalist (and perhaps the editor) known and associated with any awards the journal received? You could've just clicked on the author's bio, but yes. "His reporting with a partner and CNN exposed rampant fraud in California's drug rehab system for the poor, winning an Investigative Reporters and Editors Award."
    - loceng 8y ago
      You conveniently ignored the main points of my response - and turned a reasonable question into a put down via "says more about you than the source." You seem to lack intellectual integrity, in case you don't realize that. Done engaging with you. :)
      - mdorazio 8y ago
        This response was both hypocritical and immature. I'm disappointed by reading this thread.
        loceng 8y ago
        Okay, so what was hypocritical and immature about it? Please see bji's other responses in this thread, and perhaps mine, to get a fuller picture. If you have a strong argument point then perhaps you can make me aware of hypocrisy and immaturity - I hope you do so if it's true so I can learn, albeit and alas, most people don't put that effort in and instead make a quick response of simply sharing a loose feeling without deeper critical analysis to understand the situation and feelings in depth; this is in part a problem with the lack of tone in text. I was pointing out their ignoring of the main point of my responses, and pointing out their put down; pointing out a lack of intellectual integrity isn't a put down, whereas saying simply because I haven't heard of a source "says more about me than the source" is nonsensical. Likewise, letting them know I'm done engaging with them is better IMHO than "ghosting" them. How is there integrity in a conversation if someone simply uses put downs and ignores the one main countering point to a proposed solution? Perhaps a gentler or kinder way to put it is they're lacking intellectual honesty - in order to try to prove a point, and backing that up/reenforcing that with a put down.
woah 8y ago
Count Ioceng as another one of the workers wronged by Tesla- I doubt they’re even paying him for spamming this thread.
- sctb 8y ago
  > Please don't impute astroturfing or shillage. That degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about it, email us and we'll look at the data. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dagss 8y ago

The clothing industry (or pretty much any low cost country manufacturing) is much much much worse than what is described here. Ubfortunately, people buy products produced by effectively torturing workers all the time. That doesn't in any way justify what Tesla is doing of course. Just pointing out that this is "peanuts" compared to other products that people do not tend to boycott. Wish there was a good solution. I try to buy fairtrade-marked goods when I can but the selection is limited as most people seem to not care. For cars, there is no measurement or guarantee that other brands are better that is easily available to me, especially if you include Asian subcontractors / parts producers.

robertAngst 8y ago

I was a big Tesla fan until- >A Tesla recruiter called me, high pressure tried to get me to move to California, ending in- "So you don't want to do anything important with your life?" >Elon's marketing team spam reddit and manip upvotes. This was my first wakeup call that we were being tricked >That Tesla =/= getting to Mars in 2023. >The Chevy Bolt was car of the year. Tesla's will be unreliable for ~10 years until they work out design related issues. (This is unavoidable for every new car company) >The horrid conditions of employees, seems like we are taking a step back in employee conditions in favor of 'progress'. >Manipulation of news, numbers, etc... make the company seem unethical. I still have Elon as my wallpaper, with a motivation phrase telling me to "Get to work". But I've sobered up, he was a cult of personality.

loceng 8y ago
I'd hope that "So you don't want to do anything important with your life?" wasn't in a script, and was an individual recruiter being a manipulative asshole - and once this was found out about by management (and hopefully they investigated and could find out who said it) the recruiter was then told to not say such thing again - and fired if they did. I can't really reply to anything else you posted, there's reasonable counter-points to all of it. You shouldn't blindly trust any one source of course, and excitement/emotion for someone or an organization doing something good can prevent use from critical thinking. At the same time, it's important to understand what it means for a company to be the most shorted stock in history - and the amount of effort, and financial gain, that will come to people purposely trying to put down Tesla et al. Good can come from this process if everyone involved is being reasonable. Is it good that someone who asked for an ambulance to go to the hospital, instead after an assessment by an onsite doctor, were said to take a Lyft? It clearly wasn't life threatening in that doctor's eyes to require the life-stabilizing ability/necessity of an ambulance - I suppose that person sharing their story might not be talking to us then today. Likewise, is the issue that Tesla is purposefully trying to avoid "an ambulance being called" to avoid a log in OSHA records? I doubt it, however this does highlight that the processes and requirements for OSHA likely need to be updated: so that if there are on-site doctors who do an assessment, then that also gets into the log. I imagine it's more likely an incomplete/inadequate process of reporting because how many work places have on-site doctors 24/7? Not very many I'm guessing.