5 ms·

That's the thing - almost all voting rules in the US are decided state by state. And states will purposefully make it harder to get an ID AND make ID required.

by cm2012 8y ago

That's the thing - almost all voting rules in the US are decided state by state. And states will purposefully make it harder to get an ID AND make ID required. This is not conjecture, its historical fact.

chrisco255 8y ago
No, it's 2018. Nobody is making it difficult to get an ID. 99.99% of adults already have ID. You need ID to rent a hotel, drive a car, buy a beer, buy certain types of chemicals, get a job, fly on a plane, buy cigs, rent a pool table, all sorts of cases.
- cm2012 8y ago
  Actually, 91 percent of Whites have government issued ID, compared to 73 percent of Blacks and 83 percent of hispanics. It's a huge impact. Just not on the type of people in your social sphere. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.projectvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/AMERICANS-WITH-PHOTO-ID-Research-Memo-February-2015.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjVos7mnr_eAhUS0FkKHfudDlQQFjABegQIDBAE&usg=AOvVaw0y-1G55dq_gZlPGTpBSULI&cshid=1541489340118 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://...
  - isoskeles 8y ago
    The numbers you posted are specific for Driver's Licenses and Passports. The link you posted notes that general photo ids are possessed by white: 95%, black: 87%, hispanic: 90%.
    - mikeash 8y ago
      Another fun trick is to design the list of acceptable forms of ID such that the right people are more likely to have one that’s acceptable. For example, accepting a concealed carry permit but not a state-issued student ID.
      - yazan94 8y ago
        At least in my state, getting a concealed carry permit requires: * birth certificate, passport, or other paperwork confirming lawful presence in the US * submitting a passport photo * have your fingerprints * notarized application And after you submit all this, the powers that be have 8 weeks to process it and conduct a criminal and background check where they can reject you for any reason. I've never seen a state issued student id, but I'm fairly certain you don't have to go through all these steps. I would argue that a CC permit should be a valid form of ID.
        mikeash 8y ago
        The point is that people who already have a CC permit are more likely to vote a certain way, and the valid forms of ID are deliberately chosen with this in mind to get more of those people to vote. One could make the case that the CC permit is more secure and this should be allowed, but that’s not how the decision is actually being made.
        yazan94 8y ago
        I totally get your point, and I wouldn't be surprised if you were correct. But at the same time, everyone who has a CC permit most likely also has a state issued ID, so it really is a moot point. from above: > The numbers you posted are specific for Driver's Licenses and Passports. The link you posted notes that general photo ids are possessed by white: 95%, black: 87%, hispanic: 90%. I am more interested why there are so many people who don't have government issued id's. Why is there a disparity? Is it an active systematic voter suppression tactic or other race-driven conspiracy? Or just how the pieces fall in terms of economic class and where these people live?
        mikeash 8y ago
        I suspect it’s a mix. Historically, it’s probably been due to poverty and documentation, and that persists. Now that ID is being weaponized against certain voters, deliberate disenfranchisement comes in helping to keep it that way.
- rtpg 8y ago
  Do you need an ID with your current address to buy cigarrettes? Because you need one with your address to vote in North Dakota. It's not just about having ID. I have loads of cards with my face and name on it. It's about the ID requirements being tailored to disenfranchise certain voters. It's public record that this is the motivation for the people making these laws! There's no debate about the motive, because people are on the record as saying it's targeted disenfranchisement!
  - isoskeles 8y ago
    Maybe you could provide a link.
  - ModernMech 8y ago
    This right here. When you are allowed to use a gun registration but not a student ID, that tells you everything you need to know about what the intended purpose is.
    - chrisco255 8y ago
      Student IDs aren't government issued. You can get a student ID from a private school.
  - chrisco255 8y ago
    No, it's not. It's to prevent people from voting for, say, people in nursing homes, dead people whose registrations haven't expired yet, non-citizens from registering, etc.
chrisco255 8y ago
Like how many people ARE registered to vote but lack ID? Less than 1.2% as of 2010, in a survey of voters in three states: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0275074009342892 http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0275074009342892 And in Indiana, the state with strictest ID laws, less than 0.3% of registered voters lacked ID. In the meantime, for those who lack ID, getting an ID is a good thing.
- rahkiin 8y ago
  People without ID probably don’t register making this number very small
- icebraining 8y ago
  I'm an outsider, but 1.2% seems quite relevant to me, considering the spread in the last presidential election was just 2.1%.
  - TheCoelacanth 8y ago
    And that is the popular vote, which had a much larger margin than the vote that actually counted. The election was decided by a few hundred thousand votes in the right places, which makes it more like a 0.5% margin.
VLM 8y ago
"And states will purposefully make it harder to get an ID" You're in charge of your state; keep it in line, don't be a victim. Mine has been forced to give out free state ID cards. Not nominal fee, but $0 cost. You don't need any money to get the required docs to get a non federal real ID card. Real ID compatible cards are also free if you have the docs, but if you don't have the docs you can't live in legal society anyway. My MiL and UiL are both too old/frail to drive (I'm older than some HN posters) and they have free state ID cards, so I am very recently extremely familiar with this situation.
- cm2012 8y ago
  First, I completely agree that ID cards should be free and easy to get. But it's not quite true that the victims here are in charge of their states. Voting rights rules almost always target minority populations, which by definition are not in charge of the state. The USA should protect people not in the majority as well.

by cm2012 8y ago

chrisco255 8y ago

No, it's 2018. Nobody is making it difficult to get an ID. 99.99% of adults already have ID. You need ID to rent a hotel, drive a car, buy a beer, buy certain types of chemicals, get a job, fly on a plane, buy cigs, rent a pool table, all sorts of cases.

cm2012 8y ago
Actually, 91 percent of Whites have government issued ID, compared to 73 percent of Blacks and 83 percent of hispanics. It's a huge impact. Just not on the type of people in your social sphere. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.projectvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/AMERICANS-WITH-PHOTO-ID-Research-Memo-February-2015.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjVos7mnr_eAhUS0FkKHfudDlQQFjABegQIDBAE&usg=AOvVaw0y-1G55dq_gZlPGTpBSULI&cshid=1541489340118 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://...
- isoskeles 8y ago
  The numbers you posted are specific for Driver's Licenses and Passports. The link you posted notes that general photo ids are possessed by white: 95%, black: 87%, hispanic: 90%.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    Another fun trick is to design the list of acceptable forms of ID such that the right people are more likely to have one that’s acceptable. For example, accepting a concealed carry permit but not a state-issued student ID.
    - yazan94 8y ago
      At least in my state, getting a concealed carry permit requires: * birth certificate, passport, or other paperwork confirming lawful presence in the US * submitting a passport photo * have your fingerprints * notarized application And after you submit all this, the powers that be have 8 weeks to process it and conduct a criminal and background check where they can reject you for any reason. I've never seen a state issued student id, but I'm fairly certain you don't have to go through all these steps. I would argue that a CC permit should be a valid form of ID.
      - mikeash 8y ago
        The point is that people who already have a CC permit are more likely to vote a certain way, and the valid forms of ID are deliberately chosen with this in mind to get more of those people to vote. One could make the case that the CC permit is more secure and this should be allowed, but that’s not how the decision is actually being made.
        yazan94 8y ago
        I totally get your point, and I wouldn't be surprised if you were correct. But at the same time, everyone who has a CC permit most likely also has a state issued ID, so it really is a moot point. from above: > The numbers you posted are specific for Driver's Licenses and Passports. The link you posted notes that general photo ids are possessed by white: 95%, black: 87%, hispanic: 90%. I am more interested why there are so many people who don't have government issued id's. Why is there a disparity? Is it an active systematic voter suppression tactic or other race-driven conspiracy? Or just how the pieces fall in terms of economic class and where these people live?
        mikeash 8y ago
        I suspect it’s a mix. Historically, it’s probably been due to poverty and documentation, and that persists. Now that ID is being weaponized against certain voters, deliberate disenfranchisement comes in helping to keep it that way.
rtpg 8y ago
Do you need an ID with your current address to buy cigarrettes? Because you need one with your address to vote in North Dakota. It's not just about having ID. I have loads of cards with my face and name on it. It's about the ID requirements being tailored to disenfranchise certain voters. It's public record that this is the motivation for the people making these laws! There's no debate about the motive, because people are on the record as saying it's targeted disenfranchisement!
- isoskeles 8y ago
  Maybe you could provide a link.
- ModernMech 8y ago
  This right here. When you are allowed to use a gun registration but not a student ID, that tells you everything you need to know about what the intended purpose is.
  - chrisco255 8y ago
    Student IDs aren't government issued. You can get a student ID from a private school.
- chrisco255 8y ago
  No, it's not. It's to prevent people from voting for, say, people in nursing homes, dead people whose registrations haven't expired yet, non-citizens from registering, etc.

chrisco255 8y ago

Like how many people ARE registered to vote but lack ID? Less than 1.2% as of 2010, in a survey of voters in three states: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0275074009342892 http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0275074009342892 And in Indiana, the state with strictest ID laws, less than 0.3% of registered voters lacked ID. In the meantime, for those who lack ID, getting an ID is a good thing.

rahkiin 8y ago
People without ID probably don’t register making this number very small
icebraining 8y ago
I'm an outsider, but 1.2% seems quite relevant to me, considering the spread in the last presidential election was just 2.1%.
- TheCoelacanth 8y ago
  And that is the popular vote, which had a much larger margin than the vote that actually counted. The election was decided by a few hundred thousand votes in the right places, which makes it more like a 0.5% margin.

VLM 8y ago

"And states will purposefully make it harder to get an ID" You're in charge of your state; keep it in line, don't be a victim. Mine has been forced to give out free state ID cards. Not nominal fee, but $0 cost. You don't need any money to get the required docs to get a non federal real ID card. Real ID compatible cards are also free if you have the docs, but if you don't have the docs you can't live in legal society anyway. My MiL and UiL are both too old/frail to drive (I'm older than some HN posters) and they have free state ID cards, so I am very recently extremely familiar with this situation.

cm2012 8y ago
First, I completely agree that ID cards should be free and easy to get. But it's not quite true that the victims here are in charge of their states. Voting rights rules almost always target minority populations, which by definition are not in charge of the state. The USA should protect people not in the majority as well.