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> 2. The word 'choice' is not really apposite here, given that one sex, by the mere lottery of birth, carries the burden of pregnancy Welcome to life, it isn't

> 2. The word 'choice' is not really apposite here, given that one sex, by the mere lottery of birth, carries the burden of pregnancy Welcome to life, it isn't equal, and never will be. Maybe we should stop trying to make the playing field level and just appreciate and celebrate the differences.

Emma_Goldman 8y ago
'Welcome to life, it isn't equal, and never will be.' Right, that is 'life' in the sense that it is, to some partial extent - and I say partial because women regularly successfully reintegrate back into the work force, and many employers don't have your dim view of things - the existing state of things. But humans, if you had not noticed from the ideological and political revolutions of the last three-hundred years, can change and improve society. It is simply factually and politically absurd to say that X is reality at the moment, so X should or must always be reality. You would not say that of the various inequalities - of sex, race and class - of the past, so why say it now? 'Maybe we should stop trying to make the playing field level and just appreciate and celebrate the differences.' There is nothing intrinsically valuable in 'difference', e.g. a master is different from his slave, but that hardly justifies the difference. So no, I don't think we should bathe in the glory of our inequalities, and chastise people who think we could do better.
- jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
  >There is nothing intrinsically valuable in 'difference' There is nothing intrinsically valuable in equality. FTFY
  - Emma_Goldman 8y ago
    I said what I meant - obviously - so you didn't 'fix' anything. I was arguing against your suggestion that inequality - and the ways in which society is gendered to the disadvantage of women in particular - is a natural part of 'life' that we should just fatalistically reconcile ourselves to. Maybe I was wrong, and you don't object to equality on empirical grounds (although perhaps they were never serious, anyway), but because you're an anti-egalitarian reactionary.
gowld 8y ago
Why should celebrate some people being underpaid for their efforts?
sangnoir 8y ago
> Maybe we should stop trying to make the playing field level and just appreciate and celebrate the differences. Funny how I never heard this argument when the anti-poaching agreements between tech giants were revealed. Maybe we ought to have celebrated the unfair differences between man and employer? HN's capacity for empathy seems rather limited until they (we?) are at the pointy-end of the stick. Drifting back towards the topic, I believe in the hacker spirit of experimenting/striving towards how things could be, instead of being satisfied with the stolid status quo.
Frondo 8y ago
We're all building a future together here, and "life isn't equal and never will be" is a dire, shitty attitude to take. You said I have fluffy unicorn ideology in another thread here, and I think that's bullshit, especially in the resource-rich 21st century. As resource-rich as we are now, the future's gonna be even brighter. If you just want to recreate the "life is unequal" structures in the 22nd century, why fucking bother at all?
- jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
  You can get outraged and mad, and kick and scream all you want. But it is completely and utterly stupid to "fight for equality". If you want to waste your time and energy, feel free. But people are born differently, some have better bone density, some have a high metabolism, some can build muscle faster. Some people are stronger, faster, smarter, etc. than others. This makes the world INTERESTING. I am glad there is resistance. I am glad that people need to fight for a better job, or higher pay. How rewarding is it when you finally get that better job, or get the raise. How fucking proud and good do you feel when you claw your way to the top and reap the reward? You want take that away and just hand out the same rewards to everyone? Nah, sounds like a great way to have a dull life and meaningless world.
  - Frondo 8y ago
    Not outraged, not mad, not kicking and screaming, I think your attitude is damaged. "Completely and utterly stupid to fight for equality." "I'm glad people need to fight for a better job." Retrograde and sad, and a recipe for a continually miserable world. Give everyone enough, give everyone what they need, and let's see what humanity is actually capable of. Any other attitudes, any other goals belong, rightly so, in the dustbin of history.

Emma_Goldman 8y ago

'Welcome to life, it isn't equal, and never will be.' Right, that is 'life' in the sense that it is, to some partial extent - and I say partial because women regularly successfully reintegrate back into the work force, and many employers don't have your dim view of things - the existing state of things. But humans, if you had not noticed from the ideological and political revolutions of the last three-hundred years, can change and improve society. It is simply factually and politically absurd to say that X is reality at the moment, so X should or must always be reality. You would not say that of the various inequalities - of sex, race and class - of the past, so why say it now? 'Maybe we should stop trying to make the playing field level and just appreciate and celebrate the differences.' There is nothing intrinsically valuable in 'difference', e.g. a master is different from his slave, but that hardly justifies the difference. So no, I don't think we should bathe in the glory of our inequalities, and chastise people who think we could do better.

jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
>There is nothing intrinsically valuable in 'difference' There is nothing intrinsically valuable in equality. FTFY
- Emma_Goldman 8y ago
  I said what I meant - obviously - so you didn't 'fix' anything. I was arguing against your suggestion that inequality - and the ways in which society is gendered to the disadvantage of women in particular - is a natural part of 'life' that we should just fatalistically reconcile ourselves to. Maybe I was wrong, and you don't object to equality on empirical grounds (although perhaps they were never serious, anyway), but because you're an anti-egalitarian reactionary.

gowld 8y ago

Why should celebrate some people being underpaid for their efforts?

sangnoir 8y ago

> Maybe we should stop trying to make the playing field level and just appreciate and celebrate the differences. Funny how I never heard this argument when the anti-poaching agreements between tech giants were revealed. Maybe we ought to have celebrated the unfair differences between man and employer? HN's capacity for empathy seems rather limited until they (we?) are at the pointy-end of the stick. Drifting back towards the topic, I believe in the hacker spirit of experimenting/striving towards how things could be, instead of being satisfied with the stolid status quo.

Frondo 8y ago

We're all building a future together here, and "life isn't equal and never will be" is a dire, shitty attitude to take. You said I have fluffy unicorn ideology in another thread here, and I think that's bullshit, especially in the resource-rich 21st century. As resource-rich as we are now, the future's gonna be even brighter. If you just want to recreate the "life is unequal" structures in the 22nd century, why fucking bother at all?

jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
You can get outraged and mad, and kick and scream all you want. But it is completely and utterly stupid to "fight for equality". If you want to waste your time and energy, feel free. But people are born differently, some have better bone density, some have a high metabolism, some can build muscle faster. Some people are stronger, faster, smarter, etc. than others. This makes the world INTERESTING. I am glad there is resistance. I am glad that people need to fight for a better job, or higher pay. How rewarding is it when you finally get that better job, or get the raise. How fucking proud and good do you feel when you claw your way to the top and reap the reward? You want take that away and just hand out the same rewards to everyone? Nah, sounds like a great way to have a dull life and meaningless world.
- Frondo 8y ago
  Not outraged, not mad, not kicking and screaming, I think your attitude is damaged. "Completely and utterly stupid to fight for equality." "I'm glad people need to fight for a better job." Retrograde and sad, and a recipe for a continually miserable world. Give everyone enough, give everyone what they need, and let's see what humanity is actually capable of. Any other attitudes, any other goals belong, rightly so, in the dustbin of history.