4 ms·

I think the double speak comes from a desire for a definitive taxonomy where none exists. If we just look at sex rather than gender, I can count five sexual op

I think the double speak comes from a desire for a definitive taxonomy where none exists. If we just look at sex rather than gender, I can count five sexual options that mammalian biology likes to throw darts at; 1 - male genitalia 2 - female genitalia 3 - male and female genitalia 4 - no genitalia 5 - make shit up wholesale Now, only the first two generally go on to produce offspring and the last one usually doesn't make it to birth, but nature doesn't really care for isolated categories or people's desire for simple classification systems. When it gets to gender things are even more complicated, as some people have a very strong impulse towards a category that they essentially have very little control over, while other people feel as though they can chose from a menu. And both can be correct.

DoreenMichele 8y ago
Your remarks on the sex thing don't actually fit with what I've read from (people I understand to be) actual scientists specializing in this stuff, which basically boils down to "You know that binary male-female classification? We basically made that up and nature didn't ask our opinion, kind of like how the platypus fails to conveniently fit our made up categories for animals because our made up categories and mental models are just that and nature doesn't really have a big investment in what we think before it does its thing." My thoughts on gender and social construct stuff likely wouldn't fit with whatever is politically correct and I've been gratuitously burned enough, thank you, so I don't care to go there at all this time around.
- starbeast 8y ago
  I am not sure how you got a binary classification system out of my position. I was fairly sure I was saying that there isn't one.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    You listed 5 categories, 4 of which are defined in relation to the well known binary classification. Intersex and asexual are well understood variations of that classification system. In a nutshell, I'm saying your 5th scientific category of "make shit up" would be more accurate for a broader subset than your framing would tend to suggest. It's a little like the concept of Newtonian gravity, which was made obsolete by Einstein's Theory of Relativity, yet we still use mathematical formula based on that for calculations here on earth because it's sufficient to that scenario and less work. Theory of Relativity calculations matter for interplanetary travel. Using Newtonian formulae would get you very off course in a basically deadly fashion. For many situations, male and female are broadly sufficient mental models. Where they aren't, they can be actively harmful. But the fact that higher levels of accuracy are frequently not needed doesn't mean they are actually true anymore than using Newtonian math here on earth makes Newtonian physics not obsolete in a post Einstein world.
    - starbeast 8y ago
      >In a nutshell, I'm saying your 5th scientific category of "make shit up" would be more accurate for a broader subset than your framing would tend to suggest. I get you, I think I may have put my point across fairly badly in that case.
      - DoreenMichele 8y ago
        Eh, not a big deal. It's a topic full of landmines and communication challenges.
        starbeast 8y ago
        The fun topics always are.
    - dan00 8y ago
      > For many situations, male and female are broadly sufficient mental models. Where they aren't, they can be actively harmful. But the fact that higher levels of accuracy are frequently not needed doesn't mean they are actually true anymore than using Newtonian math here on earth makes Newtonian physics not obsolete in a post Einstein world. I would like to add that you just can't live in a complex world without the broader models. Trying to use the accurate models for every case would be just overwhelming. Sure, everyone likes to bitch about other people using the broader model for their own pet peeves, but this doesn't mean that they aren't - and have to be - ignorant in other cases.
- odmkSeijin 8y ago
  DoreenMichele, I completely agree with your science processes. Someone recently tried to tell me that humans are a two-armed species. I laughed in their face. I said, haven't you ever heard of Einstein's theory of relativity? SOME people are born with 2 arms, but some people are born with no arms, some people are born with a partial arm, and some people are born with many arms. Humans having 2 arms is just a made up category that is convenient to fit with our mental model. Or it's just some stupid statistical process.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

Your remarks on the sex thing don't actually fit with what I've read from (people I understand to be) actual scientists specializing in this stuff, which basically boils down to "You know that binary male-female classification? We basically made that up and nature didn't ask our opinion, kind of like how the platypus fails to conveniently fit our made up categories for animals because our made up categories and mental models are just that and nature doesn't really have a big investment in what we think before it does its thing." My thoughts on gender and social construct stuff likely wouldn't fit with whatever is politically correct and I've been gratuitously burned enough, thank you, so I don't care to go there at all this time around.

starbeast 8y ago
I am not sure how you got a binary classification system out of my position. I was fairly sure I was saying that there isn't one.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  You listed 5 categories, 4 of which are defined in relation to the well known binary classification. Intersex and asexual are well understood variations of that classification system. In a nutshell, I'm saying your 5th scientific category of "make shit up" would be more accurate for a broader subset than your framing would tend to suggest. It's a little like the concept of Newtonian gravity, which was made obsolete by Einstein's Theory of Relativity, yet we still use mathematical formula based on that for calculations here on earth because it's sufficient to that scenario and less work. Theory of Relativity calculations matter for interplanetary travel. Using Newtonian formulae would get you very off course in a basically deadly fashion. For many situations, male and female are broadly sufficient mental models. Where they aren't, they can be actively harmful. But the fact that higher levels of accuracy are frequently not needed doesn't mean they are actually true anymore than using Newtonian math here on earth makes Newtonian physics not obsolete in a post Einstein world.
  - starbeast 8y ago
    >In a nutshell, I'm saying your 5th scientific category of "make shit up" would be more accurate for a broader subset than your framing would tend to suggest. I get you, I think I may have put my point across fairly badly in that case.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      Eh, not a big deal. It's a topic full of landmines and communication challenges.
      - starbeast 8y ago
        The fun topics always are.
  - dan00 8y ago
    > For many situations, male and female are broadly sufficient mental models. Where they aren't, they can be actively harmful. But the fact that higher levels of accuracy are frequently not needed doesn't mean they are actually true anymore than using Newtonian math here on earth makes Newtonian physics not obsolete in a post Einstein world. I would like to add that you just can't live in a complex world without the broader models. Trying to use the accurate models for every case would be just overwhelming. Sure, everyone likes to bitch about other people using the broader model for their own pet peeves, but this doesn't mean that they aren't - and have to be - ignorant in other cases.
odmkSeijin 8y ago
DoreenMichele, I completely agree with your science processes. Someone recently tried to tell me that humans are a two-armed species. I laughed in their face. I said, haven't you ever heard of Einstein's theory of relativity? SOME people are born with 2 arms, but some people are born with no arms, some people are born with a partial arm, and some people are born with many arms. Humans having 2 arms is just a made up category that is convenient to fit with our mental model. Or it's just some stupid statistical process.