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Someone with 10 years of experience getting offered an SDE1 role is a huge red flag for me and makes me wonder what this person's skill set actually is.

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philliphaydon 8y ago
I'm willing to bet if I interviewed at Amazon (or Google/MS/FB/Uber) I would probably be put in a similar role, despite having been programming since I was 8 with 14 years of commercial experience. I never went to Uni and have no degree.
- twblalock 8y ago
  I know engineers in your situation. I've interviewed a few. It is unusual for someone with 10+ years of experience to be considered for an entry-level job, no matter what kind of education they have.
  - ianai 8y ago
    Wouldn’t that be likely for someone with 10 years of experience in a very niche technology - say cobol - but applying for a C/c++ job?
    - twblalock 8y ago
      In my experience years on the job are what determine the level someone gets hired at, not skill in a specific language. Being a senior engineer is not normally about raw coding skill -- it's about knowing how to design a complex system, knowing what can go wrong, being able to collaborate effectively with others, and so on. The specific language used is not normally going to make a big difference in those areas, although candidates who need to pick up a new language are going to take longer to ramp up.
  - philliphaydon 8y ago
    With the type of interview and questions at those places I would probably fail. I’ve read stuff on algorithms but I’ve never been in a job needing to use this stuff so if you asked me anything about them I wouldn’t have a clue. Yet it seems this sort of thing is a key requirement for interview process at these big companies.
    - lsc 8y ago
      so, from experience? Interviews can be the best way to learn algorithms for the interview. First trick? there are fads in interviews. When I go through a round of interviews? there is always a lot of overlap between one company and another in the same location at the same time. Second trick? Most places are cool with interviewing you once a year. In my experience? the second interview at the same company a year later is more different than a second interview at a different company a week later, but still, there's a lot of overlap, and most companies are actually pretty okay with you trying again every year, if you are close (and if you aren't close, you usually won't make it past the phone screen) When I was a contractor, I lumped all my interviews into around the same time of the year, and I interviewed with all the top tier companies, a few of the second tier companies, and occasionally one of the not so second tier companies. (The latter mostly because those are usually the easiest interviews and they usually got back to you fastest, so it was a good ego boost, and a good way to negotiate my yearly raise as a contractor) I didn't have a spreadsheet or anything, but often the recruiters at my targets would hit me up when that year was up. Or I'd start wondering how long it had been since my last raise. But, point being, when you interview? always remember the questions you got wrong. I put any memorization/trivia into flashcards the night after, and I practice the flashcards year round. Keep the old ones; you won't get those questions as often, but you still get 'em. And they are usually interesting bits of trivia that can come in handy in other cases where you want to look smart. Go through any algorithms you didn't get with a friend to make sure it is what you think it is, and then with a book or online resource. Note, it's totally okay to ask the interviewer what algorithm it was supposed to be if you get it wrong; I mean, you still got it wrong, but if anything, it shows enthusiasm and willingness to learn. Also, interview in clusters. At least in silicon valley, the fads change pretty quickly, so the more interviews you can do in a row, the better.
- woadwarrior01 8y ago
  I was in the same boat as you two years ago, (coding since I was 5, no uni degree, 14 years of commercial experience) and I interviewed successfully at a FAANG company (where I still work), for a senior role.
  - Slartie 8y ago
    Let me guess: Netflix? From the outside (I've never worked at any of FAANG, I don't even work in the US) it seems to me that they are the most likely of those companies to actually hire seniors as seniors, simply because they appear to have made hiring preferably seniors (in terms of experience, not in terms of age) a strategy, while the others all seem to have made hiring huge numbers of inexperienced juniors their strategy.
    - woadwarrior01 8y ago
      It's Facebook. I've met plenty of people from other companies on that list without a university degree. Although, engineering levels are not something that people usually talk about outside of their close social circles.
- lsc 8y ago
  Eh, as a datapoint, I also have no degree. I worked at google for a few years as a contractor (with 15+ years industry experience before that) - A few months back, I interviewed and was hired on as a L4 (L3, as I understand it, is where you come in after college, L5 is senior.) My personal impression is that it was pretty clear to all involved what they'd need to pay me, and they slotted me in at a tech level that made that ask reasonable. (but then, I think that ask really was reasonable for my skill level and the current market, if anything in this market can be seen as reasonable, so I guess in the end, that means the same thing as slotting in my level based on my skill level. But google and the contracting house both had a lot of information about what I was willing to accept, and about what other companies were willing to offer me. I have a very open negotiating style.) My other impression is that I totally would have had that senior title at a smaller company, but I wouldn't have gotten paid any more, so again, the money seems to be the honest signal.
  - eridius 8y ago
    ~~Correct, L4 is the same thing as SDE2.~~ EDIT: I completely screwed that up. L4–L6 map to SDE1–SDE3.
    - chronid 8y ago
      When I left, L4 was SDE1, L5 was SDE2. Sometime after I left there was a big push to get more and more L5s on board, at the point than in some teams L4s were effectively sidelined (and found themselves with little no ability to advance to L5 depending to org politics, in some "high growth" ops teams they made for convenient beasts of burden...)
      - eridius 8y ago
        Oops you're right, I completely screwed that up. Just shows how often I think about L-levels.
- ex_amazon_sde 8y ago
  Ex Amazon here. If you think you would be offered a junior role just because you don't have a degree, think again. Degrees are treated as a plus; the answers to technical questions is what really matter, including the ones or past projects.
enraged_camel 8y ago
This seems like an exceptionally harsh thing to say, especially without knowing any of the relevant details.
- vntok 8y ago
  Well we do have more details. The OP wrote in this very topic about his software developing experience: he only worked "3 years as JS developer at a startup. Plus few open source contributions and side projects. I wasn't strong in Java or other fundamental languages"
agoldis 8y ago
I worked at IT department of Intel for 6 years. Then for about a year as a DevOps. Then for 3 years as JS developer at a startup. Plus few open source contributions and side projects. I wasn't strong in Java or other fundamental languages. == That is my skillset
- ap3 8y ago
  Thanks for the article How many years of SDE experience do you say you have? Not sure I would would count devops or IT though
  - agoldis 8y ago
    I mentioned "10 years of experience in the industry", is it fair?
    - esrauch 8y ago
      It is a little misleading in this context, even 25 years of experience doing IT often won't clearly mean you have the right skill set to be SDE2 (and vice versa).
    - Kurtz79 8y ago
      Then it's equally fair on part of your employer, which is interviewing for a software dev position, to consider as relevant experience only those where you actually did software development...
- eridius 8y ago
  So it sounds like the role worked primarily with Java? I guess I can see why IT for 6 years plus 3 years as a JS dev wouldn't really prepare you for that and why, as a result, you would get slotted into an SDE1 role (hopefully with the expectation of ramping up quickly and making it to SDE2 in relatively short order). I'm not sure I understand why such a role would be interesting to you, though.
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jelling 8y ago
Amazon busts everyone down at least one or two pegs in title. A friend with extensive agency experience joined their creative team and when I saw his title I was shocked but he explained that's what they do everyone. He say this leads to people frequently introducing themselves to others by saying "I used to be title X at company Y". SE1 is ridiculous for someone with 10 years experience as either they deserve a much better title or they didn't learn enough in the last 10 years and you shouldn't hire them at all.
- jahlove 8y ago
  he commented above that he had 10 years of IT and DevOps. I found the article's glossing over that detail to be pretty misleading.
vkou 8y ago
The only thing it may be a red flag of, is of the Amazon interviewing process. Or, of how poorly he interviewed, which may be tangential to how well he does his job. It doesn't matter if your name is Alan Turing, or Donald Knuth. If you don't do great at solving five pet questions, posed to you by five software engineers of average ability, you're going to get an offer for a junior position.

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philliphaydon 8y ago

I'm willing to bet if I interviewed at Amazon (or Google/MS/FB/Uber) I would probably be put in a similar role, despite having been programming since I was 8 with 14 years of commercial experience. I never went to Uni and have no degree.

twblalock 8y ago
I know engineers in your situation. I've interviewed a few. It is unusual for someone with 10+ years of experience to be considered for an entry-level job, no matter what kind of education they have.
- ianai 8y ago
  Wouldn’t that be likely for someone with 10 years of experience in a very niche technology - say cobol - but applying for a C/c++ job?
  - twblalock 8y ago
    In my experience years on the job are what determine the level someone gets hired at, not skill in a specific language. Being a senior engineer is not normally about raw coding skill -- it's about knowing how to design a complex system, knowing what can go wrong, being able to collaborate effectively with others, and so on. The specific language used is not normally going to make a big difference in those areas, although candidates who need to pick up a new language are going to take longer to ramp up.
- philliphaydon 8y ago
  With the type of interview and questions at those places I would probably fail. I’ve read stuff on algorithms but I’ve never been in a job needing to use this stuff so if you asked me anything about them I wouldn’t have a clue. Yet it seems this sort of thing is a key requirement for interview process at these big companies.
  - lsc 8y ago
    so, from experience? Interviews can be the best way to learn algorithms for the interview. First trick? there are fads in interviews. When I go through a round of interviews? there is always a lot of overlap between one company and another in the same location at the same time. Second trick? Most places are cool with interviewing you once a year. In my experience? the second interview at the same company a year later is more different than a second interview at a different company a week later, but still, there's a lot of overlap, and most companies are actually pretty okay with you trying again every year, if you are close (and if you aren't close, you usually won't make it past the phone screen) When I was a contractor, I lumped all my interviews into around the same time of the year, and I interviewed with all the top tier companies, a few of the second tier companies, and occasionally one of the not so second tier companies. (The latter mostly because those are usually the easiest interviews and they usually got back to you fastest, so it was a good ego boost, and a good way to negotiate my yearly raise as a contractor) I didn't have a spreadsheet or anything, but often the recruiters at my targets would hit me up when that year was up. Or I'd start wondering how long it had been since my last raise. But, point being, when you interview? always remember the questions you got wrong. I put any memorization/trivia into flashcards the night after, and I practice the flashcards year round. Keep the old ones; you won't get those questions as often, but you still get 'em. And they are usually interesting bits of trivia that can come in handy in other cases where you want to look smart. Go through any algorithms you didn't get with a friend to make sure it is what you think it is, and then with a book or online resource. Note, it's totally okay to ask the interviewer what algorithm it was supposed to be if you get it wrong; I mean, you still got it wrong, but if anything, it shows enthusiasm and willingness to learn. Also, interview in clusters. At least in silicon valley, the fads change pretty quickly, so the more interviews you can do in a row, the better.
woadwarrior01 8y ago
I was in the same boat as you two years ago, (coding since I was 5, no uni degree, 14 years of commercial experience) and I interviewed successfully at a FAANG company (where I still work), for a senior role.
- Slartie 8y ago
  Let me guess: Netflix? From the outside (I've never worked at any of FAANG, I don't even work in the US) it seems to me that they are the most likely of those companies to actually hire seniors as seniors, simply because they appear to have made hiring preferably seniors (in terms of experience, not in terms of age) a strategy, while the others all seem to have made hiring huge numbers of inexperienced juniors their strategy.
  - woadwarrior01 8y ago
    It's Facebook. I've met plenty of people from other companies on that list without a university degree. Although, engineering levels are not something that people usually talk about outside of their close social circles.
lsc 8y ago
Eh, as a datapoint, I also have no degree. I worked at google for a few years as a contractor (with 15+ years industry experience before that) - A few months back, I interviewed and was hired on as a L4 (L3, as I understand it, is where you come in after college, L5 is senior.) My personal impression is that it was pretty clear to all involved what they'd need to pay me, and they slotted me in at a tech level that made that ask reasonable. (but then, I think that ask really was reasonable for my skill level and the current market, if anything in this market can be seen as reasonable, so I guess in the end, that means the same thing as slotting in my level based on my skill level. But google and the contracting house both had a lot of information about what I was willing to accept, and about what other companies were willing to offer me. I have a very open negotiating style.) My other impression is that I totally would have had that senior title at a smaller company, but I wouldn't have gotten paid any more, so again, the money seems to be the honest signal.
- eridius 8y ago
  ~~Correct, L4 is the same thing as SDE2.~~ EDIT: I completely screwed that up. L4–L6 map to SDE1–SDE3.
  - chronid 8y ago
    When I left, L4 was SDE1, L5 was SDE2. Sometime after I left there was a big push to get more and more L5s on board, at the point than in some teams L4s were effectively sidelined (and found themselves with little no ability to advance to L5 depending to org politics, in some "high growth" ops teams they made for convenient beasts of burden...)
    - eridius 8y ago
      Oops you're right, I completely screwed that up. Just shows how often I think about L-levels.
ex_amazon_sde 8y ago
Ex Amazon here. If you think you would be offered a junior role just because you don't have a degree, think again. Degrees are treated as a plus; the answers to technical questions is what really matter, including the ones or past projects.

enraged_camel 8y ago

This seems like an exceptionally harsh thing to say, especially without knowing any of the relevant details.

vntok 8y ago
Well we do have more details. The OP wrote in this very topic about his software developing experience: he only worked "3 years as JS developer at a startup. Plus few open source contributions and side projects. I wasn't strong in Java or other fundamental languages"

agoldis 8y ago

I worked at IT department of Intel for 6 years. Then for about a year as a DevOps. Then for 3 years as JS developer at a startup. Plus few open source contributions and side projects. I wasn't strong in Java or other fundamental languages. == That is my skillset

ap3 8y ago
Thanks for the article How many years of SDE experience do you say you have? Not sure I would would count devops or IT though
- agoldis 8y ago
  I mentioned "10 years of experience in the industry", is it fair?
  - esrauch 8y ago
    It is a little misleading in this context, even 25 years of experience doing IT often won't clearly mean you have the right skill set to be SDE2 (and vice versa).
  - Kurtz79 8y ago
    Then it's equally fair on part of your employer, which is interviewing for a software dev position, to consider as relevant experience only those where you actually did software development...
eridius 8y ago
So it sounds like the role worked primarily with Java? I guess I can see why IT for 6 years plus 3 years as a JS dev wouldn't really prepare you for that and why, as a result, you would get slotted into an SDE1 role (hopefully with the expectation of ramping up quickly and making it to SDE2 in relatively short order). I'm not sure I understand why such a role would be interesting to you, though.

deleted 8y ago

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jelling 8y ago

Amazon busts everyone down at least one or two pegs in title. A friend with extensive agency experience joined their creative team and when I saw his title I was shocked but he explained that's what they do everyone. He say this leads to people frequently introducing themselves to others by saying "I used to be title X at company Y". SE1 is ridiculous for someone with 10 years experience as either they deserve a much better title or they didn't learn enough in the last 10 years and you shouldn't hire them at all.

jahlove 8y ago
he commented above that he had 10 years of IT and DevOps. I found the article's glossing over that detail to be pretty misleading.

vkou 8y ago

The only thing it may be a red flag of, is of the Amazon interviewing process. Or, of how poorly he interviewed, which may be tangential to how well he does his job. It doesn't matter if your name is Alan Turing, or Donald Knuth. If you don't do great at solving five pet questions, posed to you by five software engineers of average ability, you're going to get an offer for a junior position.