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Thanks for pointing that out! I was frustrated by the expectation to focus on documenting to get a promotion. I don't think it is a good practice and was surpr

Thanks for pointing that out! I was frustrated by the expectation to focus on documenting to get a promotion. I don't think it is a good practice and was surprised to see that: > focusing on that process (promotion) is not a distraction from doing your job: it is doing your job! Seems like you understanding of "doing job" is different. To make it clear - I used to be promoted by helping a business grow - complete activities on time on an excellent manner, optimize, reduce costs, propose new features / work on POC. Not by writing self-promotional documents. > Exceeding expectations for your current position is how you get promoted. Unfortunately, it is not by "exceeding", but documenting that you have exceeded, and knowing how to document it right, sometimes not really exceeding at all. > It seems like the author's idea of "doing your job" was different than his employer's, so of course he had a bad time. Do you think I came from Tel Aviv to Vancouver AND brought my family to just "do the job" and not to exceed? And, moreover, write and share an article about that? No.

throwawayamzn98 8y ago
>Seems like you understanding of "doing job" is different. To make it clear - I used to be promoted by helping a business grow - complete activities on time on an excellent manner, optimize, reduce costs, propose new features / work on POC. >Not by writing self-promotional documents. >> Exceeding expectations for your current position is how you get promoted. >Unfortunately, it is not by "exceeding", but documenting that you have exceeded, and knowing how to document it right, sometimes not really exceeding at all. You're stating the problem to be documenting. Yes, Amazon, I, and many others think that having concrete examples and data outlined explicitly is a good way to make these important decisions. Otherwise you have nepotism and gut-feeling type promotions for employees. If you thought about this more, would you really want promotions handed out randomly? How else do you show you're "completing activities, optimize, reduce costs, work on POC". Do you want to leave this all up to one person, your manager? What if they have a slight against you? Do you want your manager to do the work of documenting your progression? You still run into the single point of failure problem, on top of your manager's workload increasing for each developer, on top of them usually being already busier. Amazon et. al. constantly seek data on doing these types of things better, but you haven't proposed much of an alternative. (Disclaimer: Amazon employee, opinions are my own, not my employer's)
- agoldis 8y ago
  Thanks for your comment! And disclaimer. Probably that's the best process that the company at such scale could adopt, but please let me dislike it. Probably it's better than other processes, but still, it has few problems, and I tried to point them out: 1. It doesn't solve "nepotism" problem - especially at the higher levels 2. It puts employee's focus on promotion and the document, but not the actual job
- slimscsi 8y ago
  the issue becomes alignment of business incentives with individuals incentives. Employees who work just to check the boxes on the promotion doc do better in the system then people who move the business forward regardless if it is necessary for promotion.
ageitgey 8y ago
> I was frustrated by the expectation to focus on documenting to get a promotion. I don't think it is a good practice and was surprised to see that focusing on that process (promotion) is not a distraction from doing your job: it is doing your job! Amazon is a giant machine with hundreds of thousands of employees. How many SDE 1s do they hire Evey year globally? Hundreds? More? How do you possibly treat them all fairly when no single person has met them all? The result is that companies like that become heavily systematized. Even if your boss wanted to promote you, they would have to defend the promotion to their boss which requieres evidence. And that boss has to justify all their promotions to their director or VP by demonstrating how they are making an impact across multiple teams - thus more evidence. All that takes documentation. There are just too many people involved for promotions to be based on personal relationships. What if one boss is super promotion-happy and another never promotes? How do you fix it? Because this happens all the time. Thus you need documentation to justify why each person gets promoted so there's at least so level of fairness - even if that documentation is totally detached from how you feel you do on a day to day basis. Yes, big tech companies are soulless machines and you are right to leave if you don't want to live that life. The only way to succeed there is to learn how to play the game to some extent. It is just how it is. No one else has found a less terrible system that seems to work much better when that many people are involved and are competing with each other for money and promotions.
- agoldis 8y ago
  I think we are on the same page, and I understand the reasons for having this process... and I don't like it. I am not convincing you to reconsider promotion process, neither propose a good solution. You can say that I was stupid by expecting something else, and you'd be right :)
YZF 8y ago
Keep in mind Israeli culture is very different from Canadian culture which in turn is yet a little different than USA culture. I can totally see where you're coming from (as someone who came to Vancouver with a cat just about 16 years ago). There are much better places to work for in Vancouver (my opinion :). Hopefully you'll land in one (should have landed that before leaving Amazon :) ). There are definitely places with better management and where good work is noticed. That said you need to be aware of the cultural differences and that things work differently than the way you're used to. I was really lucky in terms of landing in a place with good culture and a team that I really got along with, but still there were culture clashes initially (and probably to some degree still are). Anyways, good luck at work and surviving the grey winter ;) Let me know how to get in touch if you're interested in some more local advice.
- agoldis 8y ago
  Thanks for your comment! Yeah, I completely agree with you regarding the cultural gap. Although my team had only 2 locals, all the rest were from Turkey, Argentina, China, East Europe etc.... I managed to find a job quite quickly, and now am happily employed at a small company that doesn't have any of the problems mentioned. Let's get connected at https://www.linkedin.com/in/agoldis/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/agoldis/
ti_ranger 8y ago
> I was frustrated by the expectation to focus on documenting to get a promotion. I don't think it is a good practice and was surprised to see that: This was apparently a relatively recent change. Until about a year ago, apparently managers wrote this document. Previous feedback that the promotion process seemed random, obscure, and allowed favoritism resulted in this change being made, where employees are involved in writing their promotion document. However, the intention isn't to focus more on documenting your promotion than doing the right things. At least in our office, senior management is aware of the problems that have been introduced, and trying to find solutions. > Not by writing self-promotional documents. If you think the most important thing for promotion is writing your promotion document, you have either been misled by your manager, or you have fallen into a trap. > Unfortunately, it is not by "exceeding", but documenting that you have exceeded, and knowing how to document it right, sometimes not really exceeding at all. In my experience, this is not true. I have sat in promotion reviews where the manager was told to write the employee's promotion doc for them, because it wasn't worth it to frustrate an good employee who doesn't find time to write his own promotion document. I am sorry that you had a bad experience at Amazon, but your experience doesn't match mine or any of the colleagues at our office that I know well enough to gauge their job satisfaction etc. However, a lot of your sentiments have been reported to arise in junior employees (who seem to focus too much on reaching promotion instead of on developing themselves). Your case may have been different because you seem to have had a bad hiring experience, where you should have been hired as an SDEII, not an SDEI. But, your manager should have sorted this out for you (by doing the work to fast-track your promotion without letting you do all the document-writing). Either you had a bad manager, or you didn't discuss this with your manager adequately. I think it is unfair for you to judge the whole company based on what seems to be one bad manager.
- agoldis 8y ago
  Thanks for investing your time and writing this comment - it all makes sense! Keep in mind, that it was just a part of my overall experience at Amazon, and the experience is my personal :)
- slimscsi 8y ago
  Or maybe you just had a good manager. It not fair to judge the whole company because it was ok for you. I came into amazon via acquisition. My manager never explained the process to me, and I wast even aware there were promotion documents for a very long time. And when setting my level on acquisition, we were told “don’t worry about it. The leveles dont really mean anything”

throwawayamzn98 8y ago

>Seems like you understanding of "doing job" is different. To make it clear - I used to be promoted by helping a business grow - complete activities on time on an excellent manner, optimize, reduce costs, propose new features / work on POC. >Not by writing self-promotional documents. >> Exceeding expectations for your current position is how you get promoted. >Unfortunately, it is not by "exceeding", but documenting that you have exceeded, and knowing how to document it right, sometimes not really exceeding at all. You're stating the problem to be documenting. Yes, Amazon, I, and many others think that having concrete examples and data outlined explicitly is a good way to make these important decisions. Otherwise you have nepotism and gut-feeling type promotions for employees. If you thought about this more, would you really want promotions handed out randomly? How else do you show you're "completing activities, optimize, reduce costs, work on POC". Do you want to leave this all up to one person, your manager? What if they have a slight against you? Do you want your manager to do the work of documenting your progression? You still run into the single point of failure problem, on top of your manager's workload increasing for each developer, on top of them usually being already busier. Amazon et. al. constantly seek data on doing these types of things better, but you haven't proposed much of an alternative. (Disclaimer: Amazon employee, opinions are my own, not my employer's)

agoldis 8y ago
Thanks for your comment! And disclaimer. Probably that's the best process that the company at such scale could adopt, but please let me dislike it. Probably it's better than other processes, but still, it has few problems, and I tried to point them out: 1. It doesn't solve "nepotism" problem - especially at the higher levels 2. It puts employee's focus on promotion and the document, but not the actual job
slimscsi 8y ago
the issue becomes alignment of business incentives with individuals incentives. Employees who work just to check the boxes on the promotion doc do better in the system then people who move the business forward regardless if it is necessary for promotion.

ageitgey 8y ago

> I was frustrated by the expectation to focus on documenting to get a promotion. I don't think it is a good practice and was surprised to see that focusing on that process (promotion) is not a distraction from doing your job: it is doing your job! Amazon is a giant machine with hundreds of thousands of employees. How many SDE 1s do they hire Evey year globally? Hundreds? More? How do you possibly treat them all fairly when no single person has met them all? The result is that companies like that become heavily systematized. Even if your boss wanted to promote you, they would have to defend the promotion to their boss which requieres evidence. And that boss has to justify all their promotions to their director or VP by demonstrating how they are making an impact across multiple teams - thus more evidence. All that takes documentation. There are just too many people involved for promotions to be based on personal relationships. What if one boss is super promotion-happy and another never promotes? How do you fix it? Because this happens all the time. Thus you need documentation to justify why each person gets promoted so there's at least so level of fairness - even if that documentation is totally detached from how you feel you do on a day to day basis. Yes, big tech companies are soulless machines and you are right to leave if you don't want to live that life. The only way to succeed there is to learn how to play the game to some extent. It is just how it is. No one else has found a less terrible system that seems to work much better when that many people are involved and are competing with each other for money and promotions.

agoldis 8y ago
I think we are on the same page, and I understand the reasons for having this process... and I don't like it. I am not convincing you to reconsider promotion process, neither propose a good solution. You can say that I was stupid by expecting something else, and you'd be right :)

YZF 8y ago

Keep in mind Israeli culture is very different from Canadian culture which in turn is yet a little different than USA culture. I can totally see where you're coming from (as someone who came to Vancouver with a cat just about 16 years ago). There are much better places to work for in Vancouver (my opinion :). Hopefully you'll land in one (should have landed that before leaving Amazon :) ). There are definitely places with better management and where good work is noticed. That said you need to be aware of the cultural differences and that things work differently than the way you're used to. I was really lucky in terms of landing in a place with good culture and a team that I really got along with, but still there were culture clashes initially (and probably to some degree still are). Anyways, good luck at work and surviving the grey winter ;) Let me know how to get in touch if you're interested in some more local advice.

agoldis 8y ago
Thanks for your comment! Yeah, I completely agree with you regarding the cultural gap. Although my team had only 2 locals, all the rest were from Turkey, Argentina, China, East Europe etc.... I managed to find a job quite quickly, and now am happily employed at a small company that doesn't have any of the problems mentioned. Let's get connected at https://www.linkedin.com/in/agoldis/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/agoldis/

ti_ranger 8y ago

> I was frustrated by the expectation to focus on documenting to get a promotion. I don't think it is a good practice and was surprised to see that: This was apparently a relatively recent change. Until about a year ago, apparently managers wrote this document. Previous feedback that the promotion process seemed random, obscure, and allowed favoritism resulted in this change being made, where employees are involved in writing their promotion document. However, the intention isn't to focus more on documenting your promotion than doing the right things. At least in our office, senior management is aware of the problems that have been introduced, and trying to find solutions. > Not by writing self-promotional documents. If you think the most important thing for promotion is writing your promotion document, you have either been misled by your manager, or you have fallen into a trap. > Unfortunately, it is not by "exceeding", but documenting that you have exceeded, and knowing how to document it right, sometimes not really exceeding at all. In my experience, this is not true. I have sat in promotion reviews where the manager was told to write the employee's promotion doc for them, because it wasn't worth it to frustrate an good employee who doesn't find time to write his own promotion document. I am sorry that you had a bad experience at Amazon, but your experience doesn't match mine or any of the colleagues at our office that I know well enough to gauge their job satisfaction etc. However, a lot of your sentiments have been reported to arise in junior employees (who seem to focus too much on reaching promotion instead of on developing themselves). Your case may have been different because you seem to have had a bad hiring experience, where you should have been hired as an SDEII, not an SDEI. But, your manager should have sorted this out for you (by doing the work to fast-track your promotion without letting you do all the document-writing). Either you had a bad manager, or you didn't discuss this with your manager adequately. I think it is unfair for you to judge the whole company based on what seems to be one bad manager.

agoldis 8y ago
Thanks for investing your time and writing this comment - it all makes sense! Keep in mind, that it was just a part of my overall experience at Amazon, and the experience is my personal :)
slimscsi 8y ago
Or maybe you just had a good manager. It not fair to judge the whole company because it was ok for you. I came into amazon via acquisition. My manager never explained the process to me, and I wast even aware there were promotion documents for a very long time. And when setting my level on acquisition, we were told “don’t worry about it. The leveles dont really mean anything”