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So the signs are there so that the police have probable cause to stop someone that they otherwise wouldn't have probable cause to stop. Does anyone else see a

So the signs are there so that the police have probable cause to stop someone that they otherwise wouldn't have probable cause to stop. Does anyone else see a problem with making otherwise perfectly legal and safe behavior(turning on to a side street) illegal just to legalize an otherwise unconstitutional traffic stop? Seems like another slippery slope we ought not to be sliding down.

closeparen 8y ago
The government is required to respect privacy, not to be stupid. An area's status as a crime hotspot can reasonably cast suspicion on those visiting it late at night.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  > The government is required to respect privacy, not to be stupid There's absolutely no requirement to 'respect privacy.'
  - closeparen 8y ago
    The 4th amendment doesn't use that word, but that's the general thrust.
  - paulajohnson 8y ago
    In Roe vs Wade the Supreme Court found a right to privacy. The fact that this is not in the Bill of Rights is irrelevant, as per the Ninth Amendment.
  - code_duck 8y ago
    It depends how you define privacy.
- watwut 8y ago
  This proposed law does sound stupid to me and not just for reasons parent said. I also strongly disagree with "area is considered crimey, therefore we effectively void protections for citizens entering it". I also think that laws designed to be broken so that you can throw false "should have follow law" excuses once cops selectively enforce it are lowering respect to law enforcement.
- code_duck 8y ago
  They can suspect all they want, but stopping an questioning someone simply due to their presence on a public street, in the absence of an exceptional situation or investigation, is not acceptable.
  - mannykannot 8y ago
    Indeed, though note that in many places (notably New York City), people can be stopped on the street with even less of a pretense of probable cause. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-and-frisk_in_New_York_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-and-frisk_in_New_York_Cit...
googlryas 8y ago
Not only are right turns safe, but they are safer than left turns, because the A column can more easily block pedestrians crossing a street parallel to the cars motion before the turn. And so a single right turn is safer than a single left turn, and this proposed law is going to make people perhaps do 3x as many left turns as they would have right turns.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  What's an 'A column' on a traffic junction? And why would pedestrians be crossing if the traffic is moving?
  - abcanthur 8y ago
    The A column is the structure of the car between the windshield and the driver and passenger windows. The B Columns are subsequently the structure between the first and second row of seats (I think).
    - blattimwind 8y ago
      The A, B, C and D columns are counted front to back. No magic ;) Notably the thick and angled A columns of modern cars create fairly large blind spots to the front left and right, while wide B columns are problematic for larger drivers, since the B column blocks visibility over the shoulder.
      - chrisseaton 8y ago
        > No magic ;) Well you need to know that they refer to columns in the car's body in the first place.
        sokoloff 8y ago
        Exactly. I'm a "car guy" and didn't connect "A column" to a car part. "A pillar" I'd have understood immediately.
godzillabrennus 8y ago
This is the people’s republic of California. If they can find a way to use government to create a fine for people who have money they will do it. If you are a homeless drug addict they want to pretend you don’t exist even if you commit a crime.
krishicks 8y ago
Think of it another way: the locals overwhelmingly agreed to change the rules because they probably understood that while they could adapt to the rule, outsiders probably would not be as well-informed. Someone making a right turn after hours paints themselves as a potential outsider who doesn’t know the rules and, given the location’s history, is probably there to solicit sex. I like that the community was empowered to make this change.
- benchaney 8y ago
  Mistreating outsiders because they are outsiders isn't justifiable just because it is popular. The idea that they are "probably there to solicit sex" is not relevant (nor is it defensible based on available evidence).
- lawlessquestion 8y ago
  The city is empowered to make the change. The court are empowered to overturn it as an unconditional restrictions on our liberty. Specificially the fourth amendment The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things .
  - EGreg 8y ago
    That just shows how smart the idea is of having a constitution and separating government powers. And by the way, I guess UPS trucks can’t deliver at night now. Stuck between a rock and a hard place mwahaha https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/02/16/world/ups-trucks-no-left-turns/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/02/16/world/ups-trucks-no-left-...
- conanbatt 8y ago
  The ability of a group of people to indulge into abusive ideas with the power of the state seems quite appalling to me.
sobrevivendo 8y ago
Not to mention that this law will surely induce racial and social biases. I am sure no single old lady will ever be fined or otherwise harrassed by incurring in this violation. This clearly means that law enforcement is using this rule to expand its mandate. This is just bad legislation.

closeparen 8y ago

The government is required to respect privacy, not to be stupid. An area's status as a crime hotspot can reasonably cast suspicion on those visiting it late at night.

craftyguy 8y ago
> The government is required to respect privacy, not to be stupid There's absolutely no requirement to 'respect privacy.'
- closeparen 8y ago
  The 4th amendment doesn't use that word, but that's the general thrust.
- paulajohnson 8y ago
  In Roe vs Wade the Supreme Court found a right to privacy. The fact that this is not in the Bill of Rights is irrelevant, as per the Ninth Amendment.
- code_duck 8y ago
  It depends how you define privacy.
watwut 8y ago
This proposed law does sound stupid to me and not just for reasons parent said. I also strongly disagree with "area is considered crimey, therefore we effectively void protections for citizens entering it". I also think that laws designed to be broken so that you can throw false "should have follow law" excuses once cops selectively enforce it are lowering respect to law enforcement.
code_duck 8y ago
They can suspect all they want, but stopping an questioning someone simply due to their presence on a public street, in the absence of an exceptional situation or investigation, is not acceptable.
- mannykannot 8y ago
  Indeed, though note that in many places (notably New York City), people can be stopped on the street with even less of a pretense of probable cause. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-and-frisk_in_New_York_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-and-frisk_in_New_York_Cit...

googlryas 8y ago

Not only are right turns safe, but they are safer than left turns, because the A column can more easily block pedestrians crossing a street parallel to the cars motion before the turn. And so a single right turn is safer than a single left turn, and this proposed law is going to make people perhaps do 3x as many left turns as they would have right turns.

chrisseaton 8y ago
What's an 'A column' on a traffic junction? And why would pedestrians be crossing if the traffic is moving?
- abcanthur 8y ago
  The A column is the structure of the car between the windshield and the driver and passenger windows. The B Columns are subsequently the structure between the first and second row of seats (I think).
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    The A, B, C and D columns are counted front to back. No magic ;) Notably the thick and angled A columns of modern cars create fairly large blind spots to the front left and right, while wide B columns are problematic for larger drivers, since the B column blocks visibility over the shoulder.
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      > No magic ;) Well you need to know that they refer to columns in the car's body in the first place.
      - sokoloff 8y ago
        Exactly. I'm a "car guy" and didn't connect "A column" to a car part. "A pillar" I'd have understood immediately.

godzillabrennus 8y ago

This is the people’s republic of California. If they can find a way to use government to create a fine for people who have money they will do it. If you are a homeless drug addict they want to pretend you don’t exist even if you commit a crime.

krishicks 8y ago

Think of it another way: the locals overwhelmingly agreed to change the rules because they probably understood that while they could adapt to the rule, outsiders probably would not be as well-informed. Someone making a right turn after hours paints themselves as a potential outsider who doesn’t know the rules and, given the location’s history, is probably there to solicit sex. I like that the community was empowered to make this change.

benchaney 8y ago
Mistreating outsiders because they are outsiders isn't justifiable just because it is popular. The idea that they are "probably there to solicit sex" is not relevant (nor is it defensible based on available evidence).
lawlessquestion 8y ago
The city is empowered to make the change. The court are empowered to overturn it as an unconditional restrictions on our liberty. Specificially the fourth amendment The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things .
- EGreg 8y ago
  That just shows how smart the idea is of having a constitution and separating government powers. And by the way, I guess UPS trucks can’t deliver at night now. Stuck between a rock and a hard place mwahaha https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/02/16/world/ups-trucks-no-left-turns/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/02/16/world/ups-trucks-no-left-...
conanbatt 8y ago
The ability of a group of people to indulge into abusive ideas with the power of the state seems quite appalling to me.

sobrevivendo 8y ago

Not to mention that this law will surely induce racial and social biases. I am sure no single old lady will ever be fined or otherwise harrassed by incurring in this violation. This clearly means that law enforcement is using this rule to expand its mandate. This is just bad legislation.