5 ms·

Central planning is the response to Von mises argument about economic calculation in socialist countries. https://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_prob

Central planning is the response to Von mises argument about economic calculation in socialist countries. https://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem https://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

kingkawn 8y ago
If you link to the wikipedia article instead it actually discusses criticisms of Von Mises instead of simply supporting it without counter-argument: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem
jayalpha 8y ago
The funny thing about Mises is: He understood socialism and its' problems much better than capitalism. He never understood capitalism but got stuck with his understanding in something reflecting a middle-ages barter economy.
- UncleEntity 8y ago
  Citation please?
  - jayalpha 8y ago
    No English citation available. But this English article implies basically the concept: https://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-02-12/limits-to-growth-at-our-doorstep-but-not-recognized/ https://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-02-12/limits-to-grow... "Unfortunately, the problem this appears eventually to lead to, is collapse. The problem is the connection with debt. Debt can be paid back with interest to a much greater extent in a growing economy than a contracting economy because we are effectively borrowing from the future–something that is a lot easier when tomorrow is assumed to be better than today, compared to when tomorrow is worse than today." Capitalism is a debt based economy, requiring to pre-finance industrial production. In the end, the debt pressure drives the whole process. Something Mises, who never worked in a company his whole life, fundamentally did not understand. He thinks you have to "save" to "invest" later.
    - UncleEntity 8y ago
      > He thinks you have to "save" to "invest" later. Because that's the truth. You can't just produce "things" out of thin air so the idea that you can finance future production without (someone, somewhere) deferring present consumption is not really valid. All interest is is an incentive for people to defer present consumption for a higher level of future consumption. Unless, of course, you just print up a bunch of money and then you aren't exactly "borrowing from the future" but taking from the current holders of the currency through lower future consumption due to inflationary devaluation of the currency [--edit--] and also taking from the current holders of the currency by artificially driving up current prices. And that Robinson Crusoe bloke stuck on an island...
      - jayalpha 8y ago
        > > He thinks you have to "save" to "invest" later. > Because that's the truth. Well, start telling this VW, BASF, Dow Chemical, Ford and the whole bunch the next time they take a billion dollar loan in expectation that it will pay off. Even Intel has 30 Billion long term debt. > You can't just produce "things" out of thin air so the > idea that you can finance future production without > (someone, somewhere) deferring present consumption is not > really valid. Exactly this is what capitalism is about. The the pressure created by debt, is exactly what makes capitalism very dynamic. > Unless, of course, you just print up a bunch of money and The idea that "only gold is money" was stupid, is stupid and always will be stupid. Even with gold back money you would be able to take loans. The only thing you would achieve is lower economic growth. > And that Robinson Crusoe bloke stuck on an island... THe Robinson Crusoe guy is perfectly a guy that Mises is describing. But he is closer to a middle ages barter economy than to anything called capitalism. This touches some things: "In simplest terms, our problem is that we as a people are no longer getting richer. Instead, we are getting poorer, as evidenced by the difficulty young people are now having getting good-paying jobs. As we get poorer, it becomes harder and harder to pay debt back with interest. It is the collision of the lack of economic growth in the real economy with the need for economic growth from the debt system that can be expected to lead to collapse." https://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-02-12/limits-to-growth-at-our-doorstep-but-not-recognized/ https://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-02-12/limits-to-grow...

kingkawn 8y ago

If you link to the wikipedia article instead it actually discusses criticisms of Von Mises instead of simply supporting it without counter-argument: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

jayalpha 8y ago

The funny thing about Mises is: He understood socialism and its' problems much better than capitalism. He never understood capitalism but got stuck with his understanding in something reflecting a middle-ages barter economy.

UncleEntity 8y ago
Citation please?
- jayalpha 8y ago
  No English citation available. But this English article implies basically the concept: https://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-02-12/limits-to-growth-at-our-doorstep-but-not-recognized/ https://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-02-12/limits-to-grow... "Unfortunately, the problem this appears eventually to lead to, is collapse. The problem is the connection with debt. Debt can be paid back with interest to a much greater extent in a growing economy than a contracting economy because we are effectively borrowing from the future–something that is a lot easier when tomorrow is assumed to be better than today, compared to when tomorrow is worse than today." Capitalism is a debt based economy, requiring to pre-finance industrial production. In the end, the debt pressure drives the whole process. Something Mises, who never worked in a company his whole life, fundamentally did not understand. He thinks you have to "save" to "invest" later.
  - UncleEntity 8y ago
    > He thinks you have to "save" to "invest" later. Because that's the truth. You can't just produce "things" out of thin air so the idea that you can finance future production without (someone, somewhere) deferring present consumption is not really valid. All interest is is an incentive for people to defer present consumption for a higher level of future consumption. Unless, of course, you just print up a bunch of money and then you aren't exactly "borrowing from the future" but taking from the current holders of the currency through lower future consumption due to inflationary devaluation of the currency [--edit--] and also taking from the current holders of the currency by artificially driving up current prices. And that Robinson Crusoe bloke stuck on an island...
    - jayalpha 8y ago
      > > He thinks you have to "save" to "invest" later. > Because that's the truth. Well, start telling this VW, BASF, Dow Chemical, Ford and the whole bunch the next time they take a billion dollar loan in expectation that it will pay off. Even Intel has 30 Billion long term debt. > You can't just produce "things" out of thin air so the > idea that you can finance future production without > (someone, somewhere) deferring present consumption is not > really valid. Exactly this is what capitalism is about. The the pressure created by debt, is exactly what makes capitalism very dynamic. > Unless, of course, you just print up a bunch of money and The idea that "only gold is money" was stupid, is stupid and always will be stupid. Even with gold back money you would be able to take loans. The only thing you would achieve is lower economic growth. > And that Robinson Crusoe bloke stuck on an island... THe Robinson Crusoe guy is perfectly a guy that Mises is describing. But he is closer to a middle ages barter economy than to anything called capitalism. This touches some things: "In simplest terms, our problem is that we as a people are no longer getting richer. Instead, we are getting poorer, as evidenced by the difficulty young people are now having getting good-paying jobs. As we get poorer, it becomes harder and harder to pay debt back with interest. It is the collision of the lack of economic growth in the real economy with the need for economic growth from the debt system that can be expected to lead to collapse." https://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-02-12/limits-to-growth-at-our-doorstep-but-not-recognized/ https://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-02-12/limits-to-grow...