6 ms·

I suppose the culture, politics, and traditions. Bay Area is generally quite liberal and tolerant, even if it is not the most diverse. Tech workers tend to be

by fierro 8y ago

I suppose the culture, politics, and traditions. Bay Area is generally quite liberal and tolerant, even if it is not the most diverse. Tech workers tend to be highly educated, well traveled, and open to new ideas. In contrast, I feel like the South is more xeno/homophobic, resistant to change, conservative etc. I have well educated family members in the South who are low-key racist. As a single data point, most young people I know/work with in California who comes from the South does not want to return for these specific reasons. That, combined with a lack of the kind of critical mass that provides Bay Area tech workers with a thriving job market / safety net, precludes (to me) the possibility of tech ever truly thriving in the South. I realize how pretentious this probably sounds. Take is as a single anecdote, based off my own personal experience. I would love to be proven wrong, and will gladly eat my words for dinner.

dionidium 8y ago
> most young people I know/work with in California who comes from the South does not want to return for these specific reasons I lived in the City of St. Louis† for 13 years (and in the County for 6 before that) before moving to NYC. What I find is that young folks here who say they're from, say, Cleveland or St. Louis or similar cities in the South and whose experiences since moving have led them to believe that nothing they've found here exists back home, are often from the exurbs of those places and don't actually know what it's like to live in the center of a Midwestern or Southern city.†† I suspect they wouldn't much like the exurbs of New York, either. We like to talk about red states vs. blue states, but the reality is that blue cities give way to purple and then red counties pretty quickly, even in liberal strongholds like New York. Now, look, that's not to say that there are no differences in culture between, say, Atlanta and San Francisco. Obviously there are big ones! But when you dig into what people actually know about living in this or that part of the country, there's often not a lot there. Or, more charitably, individual experiences vary wildly (even within a single metro area). † Not the South, but I think the point I'm trying to make here still holds. †† It also seems worth noting that the experience of living in a big, new city in your early 20s (with all the new freedoms that come with that) as compared to wherever you happened to be when you were 14 is -- well, let's just say there are important perception-shifting factors.
- JeremyNT 8y ago
  While this is true about the urban areas, the reality of life in a southern city is that the rural areas dominate the political environment and that hamstrings municipalities in various ways. I live in and am from North Carolina and find it barely tolerable despite now living in the most "progressive" part of the state (Durham). Every attempt a city makes to move things forward is faced with obstruction and preemption by state representatives from rural areas who resent the progressive population centers. Investment in infrastructure is especially seldom possible, so we have little public transit, few sidewalks, and lots of traffic. There are things to recommend the south, but it's sure to be a culture shock for anybody who moves from a major metro. As an aside, I think the transit situation alone makes this sort of area a non starter for somebody like Amazon and indeed I'm glad they did not select this region. This is an area which grows through sprawl and additional roads. The extra traffic combined with an unwillingness to spend money on public transit would have caused major issues.
  - dionidium 8y ago
    Yes. I agree with this. It's a significant problem.
  - brownbat 8y ago
    > Every attempt a city makes to move things forward is faced with obstruction and preemption... Sounds similar to NIMBYism in other places. No matter your views, politics are frustrating in some way in every geographic area, I promise.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
"quite liberal and tolerant" The Bay has a kind of a specific moral view, which is sometimes applied in a fairly authoritarian manner. It's not very Liberal, and arguably not hugely tolerant either. For example, all sorts of activities which are common and normal in the rest of America and the world are either frowned upon, or considered fully uncool in the Bay. Things like fishing. Hunting. Most sports. Talking about sports. Twangy accents. Country music. This is a long list. For example, promoting vegetarianism, and frowning upon those who are not (or forbidding it) as is now the case at 'We Work' - isn't remotely liberal. (Can you imagine if Texas Oil required their employees to be meat eaters?) Though most of that won't get you in trouble in the Bay, it puts you in the 'out club' in much the same way that being a little bit to colourful or effete might put you in the 'out club' in Texas. FYI - Having lived both in Texas and The Bay, I'm confident in saying that in the vast, vast majority of Texas you have nothing to worry about if you don't fit the Texas profile though in some legal cases it might be tricky. You just won't be 'cool' in their sense. There are tons of out gay people in Texas, working in all sorts of industries. It's not as good as the Bay, surely, but it's not hell on earth. When I was in Texas, the ladies in the office would not have it that a young single man would be alone for Thanksgiving. They put myself and the other ex-pats into homes for the holiday dinner. In Cali, nobody really cared about Thanksgiving, and certainly did not think to care that some people might be alone during this festive time. Both areas have a general view of how things ought to be, and that view is applied sometimes in an authoritarian manner, and neither of them are hugely tolerant or Liberal. They have 'their ways'.
- NotSammyHagar 8y ago
  No one in the bay area cares about fishing.
- solidsnack9000 8y ago
  The Bay has a kind of a specific moral view, which is sometimes applied in a fairly authoritarian manner. ... For example, all sorts of activities which are common and normal in the rest of America and the world are either frowned upon, or considered fully uncool in the Bay. Things like fishing. Hunting. Most sports. Talking about sports. Twangy accents. Country music. This is a long list. So true.
rayiner 8y ago
The south is definitely more xeno/homophobic, and that's unfortunate, and there's really good reasons why that might be a reason that people might not want to live there. There's also good reasons to live in the big southern cities. To compare with Northern VA, for example--growing up there, I didn't know a single black person. The area is almost exclusively white and Asian, with Hispanic people occupying a different economic tier and being quite segregated socially (and quite a bit of political tension as a result). Atlanta, by contrast, is far more integrated, with wealthy black communities, black professionals, athletes, media personalities, politicians, etc. You're almost certainly more likely to encounter racists in Atlanta, but much more likely to encounter the sort of integrated society liberals profess to want.
- JPKab 8y ago
  Northern Virginia has plenty of black folks. Look at Alexandria. But having grown up attending predominantly black schools in a rural past of the state, you are 100 percent right about the integrated nature of the South compared to the rest of the country. It was highly unusual for any wedding, funeral, or BBQ where I grew up to not be a mix of black and white. Most white people in the rest of the country have never eaten at a black person's house let alone spent the night. A child in the rural south almost certainly has. Hell, my best friend's mom made me go to church as well if I spent the night on a Saturday. Same when my buddies spent the night at my house.
ethagknight 8y ago
It’s less pretentious and more that you’re just missing out on what the south has to offer. The south definitely has these negative aspects, but I argue that letting bad apples define a whole region of American is missing the forest for the trees. I likewise read headlines of mobs attacking FAANG charter busses, out of control office and apartment rents and employees living out of their cars, pervasive homelessness, and high local taxes, and I wonder why these educated, open and well travelled people put up with it. If Tim Cook opened a research center or similar in an SEC college town like Auburn, AL, as an example, they could 1) totally dominate the university’s research pipeline relatively free from other corporate competitors, like create a custom departments silicon, materials, sensors, AI, whatever else 2) high quality of life for employees and their families with good public schools and high quality cheap housing, 3) win over the school’s board of trustees via major partnerships and get the university to do a lot to work for you for free, 4) abundant land for cheap office space 5) a high quality transit system 6) 1 hr from Atlanta’s enormous international airport plus a high quality general airport big enough for large private jets. It just seems like a win-win, yet I don’t see anyone doing it (and maybe there are great reasons why!)
- heartbreak 8y ago
  > If Tim Cook opened a research center or similar in an SEC college town like Auburn, AL, as an example His alma mater as well.
  - ethagknight 8y ago
    Mine too, a guy can dream, right? Auburn may be an extreme example, but pick almost any similar college town and you get the same story

by fierro 8y ago

dionidium 8y ago

> most young people I know/work with in California who comes from the South does not want to return for these specific reasons I lived in the City of St. Louis† for 13 years (and in the County for 6 before that) before moving to NYC. What I find is that young folks here who say they're from, say, Cleveland or St. Louis or similar cities in the South and whose experiences since moving have led them to believe that nothing they've found here exists back home, are often from the exurbs of those places and don't actually know what it's like to live in the center of a Midwestern or Southern city.†† I suspect they wouldn't much like the exurbs of New York, either. We like to talk about red states vs. blue states, but the reality is that blue cities give way to purple and then red counties pretty quickly, even in liberal strongholds like New York. Now, look, that's not to say that there are no differences in culture between, say, Atlanta and San Francisco. Obviously there are big ones! But when you dig into what people actually know about living in this or that part of the country, there's often not a lot there. Or, more charitably, individual experiences vary wildly (even within a single metro area). † Not the South, but I think the point I'm trying to make here still holds. †† It also seems worth noting that the experience of living in a big, new city in your early 20s (with all the new freedoms that come with that) as compared to wherever you happened to be when you were 14 is -- well, let's just say there are important perception-shifting factors.

JeremyNT 8y ago
While this is true about the urban areas, the reality of life in a southern city is that the rural areas dominate the political environment and that hamstrings municipalities in various ways. I live in and am from North Carolina and find it barely tolerable despite now living in the most "progressive" part of the state (Durham). Every attempt a city makes to move things forward is faced with obstruction and preemption by state representatives from rural areas who resent the progressive population centers. Investment in infrastructure is especially seldom possible, so we have little public transit, few sidewalks, and lots of traffic. There are things to recommend the south, but it's sure to be a culture shock for anybody who moves from a major metro. As an aside, I think the transit situation alone makes this sort of area a non starter for somebody like Amazon and indeed I'm glad they did not select this region. This is an area which grows through sprawl and additional roads. The extra traffic combined with an unwillingness to spend money on public transit would have caused major issues.
- dionidium 8y ago
  Yes. I agree with this. It's a significant problem.
- brownbat 8y ago
  > Every attempt a city makes to move things forward is faced with obstruction and preemption... Sounds similar to NIMBYism in other places. No matter your views, politics are frustrating in some way in every geographic area, I promise.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

"quite liberal and tolerant" The Bay has a kind of a specific moral view, which is sometimes applied in a fairly authoritarian manner. It's not very Liberal, and arguably not hugely tolerant either. For example, all sorts of activities which are common and normal in the rest of America and the world are either frowned upon, or considered fully uncool in the Bay. Things like fishing. Hunting. Most sports. Talking about sports. Twangy accents. Country music. This is a long list. For example, promoting vegetarianism, and frowning upon those who are not (or forbidding it) as is now the case at 'We Work' - isn't remotely liberal. (Can you imagine if Texas Oil required their employees to be meat eaters?) Though most of that won't get you in trouble in the Bay, it puts you in the 'out club' in much the same way that being a little bit to colourful or effete might put you in the 'out club' in Texas. FYI - Having lived both in Texas and The Bay, I'm confident in saying that in the vast, vast majority of Texas you have nothing to worry about if you don't fit the Texas profile though in some legal cases it might be tricky. You just won't be 'cool' in their sense. There are tons of out gay people in Texas, working in all sorts of industries. It's not as good as the Bay, surely, but it's not hell on earth. When I was in Texas, the ladies in the office would not have it that a young single man would be alone for Thanksgiving. They put myself and the other ex-pats into homes for the holiday dinner. In Cali, nobody really cared about Thanksgiving, and certainly did not think to care that some people might be alone during this festive time. Both areas have a general view of how things ought to be, and that view is applied sometimes in an authoritarian manner, and neither of them are hugely tolerant or Liberal. They have 'their ways'.

NotSammyHagar 8y ago
No one in the bay area cares about fishing.
solidsnack9000 8y ago
The Bay has a kind of a specific moral view, which is sometimes applied in a fairly authoritarian manner. ... For example, all sorts of activities which are common and normal in the rest of America and the world are either frowned upon, or considered fully uncool in the Bay. Things like fishing. Hunting. Most sports. Talking about sports. Twangy accents. Country music. This is a long list. So true.

rayiner 8y ago

The south is definitely more xeno/homophobic, and that's unfortunate, and there's really good reasons why that might be a reason that people might not want to live there. There's also good reasons to live in the big southern cities. To compare with Northern VA, for example--growing up there, I didn't know a single black person. The area is almost exclusively white and Asian, with Hispanic people occupying a different economic tier and being quite segregated socially (and quite a bit of political tension as a result). Atlanta, by contrast, is far more integrated, with wealthy black communities, black professionals, athletes, media personalities, politicians, etc. You're almost certainly more likely to encounter racists in Atlanta, but much more likely to encounter the sort of integrated society liberals profess to want.

JPKab 8y ago
Northern Virginia has plenty of black folks. Look at Alexandria. But having grown up attending predominantly black schools in a rural past of the state, you are 100 percent right about the integrated nature of the South compared to the rest of the country. It was highly unusual for any wedding, funeral, or BBQ where I grew up to not be a mix of black and white. Most white people in the rest of the country have never eaten at a black person's house let alone spent the night. A child in the rural south almost certainly has. Hell, my best friend's mom made me go to church as well if I spent the night on a Saturday. Same when my buddies spent the night at my house.

ethagknight 8y ago

It’s less pretentious and more that you’re just missing out on what the south has to offer. The south definitely has these negative aspects, but I argue that letting bad apples define a whole region of American is missing the forest for the trees. I likewise read headlines of mobs attacking FAANG charter busses, out of control office and apartment rents and employees living out of their cars, pervasive homelessness, and high local taxes, and I wonder why these educated, open and well travelled people put up with it. If Tim Cook opened a research center or similar in an SEC college town like Auburn, AL, as an example, they could 1) totally dominate the university’s research pipeline relatively free from other corporate competitors, like create a custom departments silicon, materials, sensors, AI, whatever else 2) high quality of life for employees and their families with good public schools and high quality cheap housing, 3) win over the school’s board of trustees via major partnerships and get the university to do a lot to work for you for free, 4) abundant land for cheap office space 5) a high quality transit system 6) 1 hr from Atlanta’s enormous international airport plus a high quality general airport big enough for large private jets. It just seems like a win-win, yet I don’t see anyone doing it (and maybe there are great reasons why!)

heartbreak 8y ago
> If Tim Cook opened a research center or similar in an SEC college town like Auburn, AL, as an example His alma mater as well.
- ethagknight 8y ago
  Mine too, a guy can dream, right? Auburn may be an extreme example, but pick almost any similar college town and you get the same story