4 ms·

Your statement is incredibly naive and ignorant. The Federal government pays incredibly well, but has few technology workers. They instead primarily act as ma

by JPKab 8y ago

Your statement is incredibly naive and ignorant. The Federal government pays incredibly well, but has few technology workers. They instead primarily act as managers for embedded contractors, who themselves are paid far above average for a given role. Additionally, AWS already has a DoD presence. Source: Lived in DC area for 8 years, worked on numerous federal contracts, witnessed highly overpaid, lazy shitbags who were so incompetent that government shutdowns forcing them to stay home sped up work on contracts. Amazes me how the "government workers are underpaid" meme is so strong in people who haven't spent time in DC area. I grew up in an impoverished rural part of Virginia 6 hours from DC. Going home and seeing my hard working relatives scrape by and do without after paying taxes, then going back to DC and seeing people who arrived at work at 9, left at 3:30, and yapped half the day made me transform from Leslie Knope to Ron Swanson. I always tell people this: The US political parties have it wrong. One thinks gov't is always bad and shouldn't exist. The other thinks it is fine, but just needs more money. The reality is that it is a broken organization that used to be amazing, but has rotted, and the last thing it needs is more money. It needs to be radically reformed and reinvented. End rant.

dc_wtf 8y ago
How could the federal government possibly pay "incredibly well" in the context of software? ~185k is the current cap on salaries. That's not the bottom or the median, it's the top, a place most people will not reach in their whole careers, and there are rigid rules around how to get there. As far as I know, pretty much everyone is on something equivalent to the GS? Even contractors are on a proxy version of it, based on my experience in the space (it's why I left). I know people talk about 18f a lot on HN and I was under the impression they had to get an ultra-special allowance of some kind for even their salaries. What makes the pay so good, I really don't get it? There are benefits, sure, but I am under the impression that pensions aren't what they used to be, and a FAANG is going to give you health insurance as a dev. What am I missing? Maybe they pay the people in question too much for their skills, motivation, or work product, but that is not "incredibly well" for a software developer in the USA. DC isn't that cheap, though certainly not like SF. If you are a good developer who doesn't show up at 9 and leave at 3:30 and don't want to, who can make it to a decent pay band at a FAANG, or have a specialization that demands high income, I just don't see how the government could be a good choice economically.
- rhexs 8y ago
  You are vastly, vastly discounting the value of the benefits. THE most secure pension in the world (you cannot buy one that good on the private market), incredible health benefits, incredible vacation policies, lax work policies for most jobs, great holiday schedule, Gov will pay to train you, you effectively cannot get laid off (try downloading porn at most corporations for hours and hours and see what happens), etc. Obviously that doesn't look quite as good right now (pretty much only for the software engineering field), but during the next recession? Best deal in the world. Heck, you even get free holidays every now and then during government shutdowns. (The employees have always been back paid for these if I recall correctly -- maybe there was one time they weren't? Very rare.)
  - hhyydd 8y ago
    You are vastly, vastly mischaracterizing government shutdowns as “free holidays.” Shutdowns due to lapses in appropriations by congress are extremely traumatic for ordinary government workers. It’s not as though you can just go on a trip while you wait for the government to re-open, as you must be ready to report the next day if appropriations are made. There is absolutely zero guarantee that back pay will be paid, despite what might have happened previously. Even if you wanted to work pro bono, you are forbidden from doing any sort of official work, even checking email, during a shutdown. In all, it’s stressful and morale crushing, and incredibly wasteful, as huge amounts of time are spent preparing for a shutdown and then spinning back up from it. To give just one example, at government science labs, experiments must be stopped, and any field work must cease and everyone must come home, which can ruin a big experiment that may have been years in the making. Calling it a holiday is flat-out false.
    - rhexs 8y ago
      And private sector is far, far more stressful. Instead of worrying about whether or not you'll get a week of back-pay, you have to worry about how you're going to feed your family and keep a roof over your head after your job is terminated with no notice and a meaningless severance package. Cry me a river. Federal jobs have downsides, but this isn't one of them.
tormeh 8y ago
Maybe the reinvention could get automated? Like, any agency is going to be shut down and rebuilt without previous staff every 30 (or whatever) years after it was originally formed? Hard to see how the transitions from old to new version would be done unless you kept outwardly backwards compatibility, though. At least it could shake things up internally. Norway is actually doing this a rebuild of one agency. The Government's Road Agency has essentially been deigned ineffectual and FUBAR, so a new agency has been formed (New Roads) with responsibility for all new roads. The old agency has stopped replacing retirees (I think) and will eventually disappear. This is of course never said loudly in plain words. I just wish they would do the same for the railroads agency, which is a peerless shitshow.
- ianai 8y ago
  I’m more for that mindset toward government projects. Ie repaving highways every X years. Rebuilding buildings every Y years. There’s plenty of capital (buildings, roads, dams, etc) that is old enough that a tear down/rebuild makes sense - and would generate careers. As for people, they often represent institutional knowledge and ability. The people who’ve left the state department will be impossible to replace, for instance.
- dba7dba 8y ago
  Actually that is a brilliant way of fixing broken government organization.
bobthepanda 8y ago
> government workers are underpaid When people are talking about this, they're usually talking about local government positions like teachers, librarians, and social workers. Or the post office. Very rarely are people talking about contractors or white collar bureaucrats.

by JPKab 8y ago

dc_wtf 8y ago

How could the federal government possibly pay "incredibly well" in the context of software? ~185k is the current cap on salaries. That's not the bottom or the median, it's the top, a place most people will not reach in their whole careers, and there are rigid rules around how to get there. As far as I know, pretty much everyone is on something equivalent to the GS? Even contractors are on a proxy version of it, based on my experience in the space (it's why I left). I know people talk about 18f a lot on HN and I was under the impression they had to get an ultra-special allowance of some kind for even their salaries. What makes the pay so good, I really don't get it? There are benefits, sure, but I am under the impression that pensions aren't what they used to be, and a FAANG is going to give you health insurance as a dev. What am I missing? Maybe they pay the people in question too much for their skills, motivation, or work product, but that is not "incredibly well" for a software developer in the USA. DC isn't that cheap, though certainly not like SF. If you are a good developer who doesn't show up at 9 and leave at 3:30 and don't want to, who can make it to a decent pay band at a FAANG, or have a specialization that demands high income, I just don't see how the government could be a good choice economically.

rhexs 8y ago
You are vastly, vastly discounting the value of the benefits. THE most secure pension in the world (you cannot buy one that good on the private market), incredible health benefits, incredible vacation policies, lax work policies for most jobs, great holiday schedule, Gov will pay to train you, you effectively cannot get laid off (try downloading porn at most corporations for hours and hours and see what happens), etc. Obviously that doesn't look quite as good right now (pretty much only for the software engineering field), but during the next recession? Best deal in the world. Heck, you even get free holidays every now and then during government shutdowns. (The employees have always been back paid for these if I recall correctly -- maybe there was one time they weren't? Very rare.)
- hhyydd 8y ago
  You are vastly, vastly mischaracterizing government shutdowns as “free holidays.” Shutdowns due to lapses in appropriations by congress are extremely traumatic for ordinary government workers. It’s not as though you can just go on a trip while you wait for the government to re-open, as you must be ready to report the next day if appropriations are made. There is absolutely zero guarantee that back pay will be paid, despite what might have happened previously. Even if you wanted to work pro bono, you are forbidden from doing any sort of official work, even checking email, during a shutdown. In all, it’s stressful and morale crushing, and incredibly wasteful, as huge amounts of time are spent preparing for a shutdown and then spinning back up from it. To give just one example, at government science labs, experiments must be stopped, and any field work must cease and everyone must come home, which can ruin a big experiment that may have been years in the making. Calling it a holiday is flat-out false.
  - rhexs 8y ago
    And private sector is far, far more stressful. Instead of worrying about whether or not you'll get a week of back-pay, you have to worry about how you're going to feed your family and keep a roof over your head after your job is terminated with no notice and a meaningless severance package. Cry me a river. Federal jobs have downsides, but this isn't one of them.

tormeh 8y ago

Maybe the reinvention could get automated? Like, any agency is going to be shut down and rebuilt without previous staff every 30 (or whatever) years after it was originally formed? Hard to see how the transitions from old to new version would be done unless you kept outwardly backwards compatibility, though. At least it could shake things up internally. Norway is actually doing this a rebuild of one agency. The Government's Road Agency has essentially been deigned ineffectual and FUBAR, so a new agency has been formed (New Roads) with responsibility for all new roads. The old agency has stopped replacing retirees (I think) and will eventually disappear. This is of course never said loudly in plain words. I just wish they would do the same for the railroads agency, which is a peerless shitshow.

ianai 8y ago
I’m more for that mindset toward government projects. Ie repaving highways every X years. Rebuilding buildings every Y years. There’s plenty of capital (buildings, roads, dams, etc) that is old enough that a tear down/rebuild makes sense - and would generate careers. As for people, they often represent institutional knowledge and ability. The people who’ve left the state department will be impossible to replace, for instance.
dba7dba 8y ago
Actually that is a brilliant way of fixing broken government organization.

bobthepanda 8y ago

> government workers are underpaid When people are talking about this, they're usually talking about local government positions like teachers, librarians, and social workers. Or the post office. Very rarely are people talking about contractors or white collar bureaucrats.