11 ms·
LA Is Trying to Fix Its Prostitution Problem by Banning Right Turns at Night
- mindcrime 8y agoThere is no "prostitution problem", other than meddling moralizers who want to tell people what they can do with their own bodies. Legalize prostitution, get the government out of the business of trying to control people's bodies, and the "problem" goes away.
- zunzun 8y agoOn the addiction relief program "Intervention" they showed a woman who said that she had to inject heroin immediately before this type of work to make it tolerable, and she also said that she found most disgusting to her was that she had to pretend to enjoy what the clients did to her.
- byoung2 8y agoChange "heroin" to "cocaine" and you could tell the same story about many stockbrokers, so what's the point?
- steve_adams_86 8y agoBrokers typically have social mobility, and a choice in their type of work. Their sacrifice to make ends meet is incomparable to that of someone selling their body. I'm confused how you can draw a likeness between the two. Perhaps there are moral threads to pull, but I don't think they end up going to the same place.
- AYBABTME 8y agoThe way you imply that "selling their body" is worse than selling whatever part of themselves a stockbroker sells while doing drugs in order to work, really is kind of part of the problem. You put a moral judgement over which activity is more degrading than another. Consider this: what if people we're entitled to do whatever they want with their body, without having to abide to your standards and morals? How much of other peoples' morality do you want to be subjected to? Beware that others may have wildly different visions on what is degrading and what is not.
- thomasz 8y agoJesus Christ... It's almost certainly worse subjectively (seriously, how many stockbrokers would describe their line of work as degrading, compared to prostitutes!?) and objectively in terms of massively increased risks in terms of mental and physical health, exposure to sexual violence as well as facing ostracism from family, friends and society as a whole.
- JDiculous 8y agoEverybody has a choice in their type of work, nobody is forced to be a prostitute. Yes most prostitutes probably don't enjoy it, but they put up with it because the money is generally many multiples more than whatever they'd make at an office job and the hours are more flexible. If someone feels like they don't have any other job opportunities, then making prostitution illegal certainly won't fix that problem (nor does it eliminate prostitution - prostitution exists everywhere, making it illegal just means a prostitute can't go to the police if a customer takes advantage of her). Policing prostitution is a complete waste of taxpayer money.
- aikah 8y agoi'm not sure on what planet you are living or you think you live. > Everybody has a choice in their type of work, nobody is forced to be a prostitute. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_child_sex_abuse_ring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_child_sex_abuse_ring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploit... People are forced into sex work all the time, everywhere on the planet including in rich western countries, by various means,debt, violence,death threats,the "boyfriend" who is a pimp, even "curse" threats, especially young kids, and most johns don't give a damn. Women who refuse to submit to their pimps or the mafia are killed to set an example.
- JDiculous 8y agoObviously forced child prostitution and trafficking happens, nobody is denying that or defending such a repulsive practice, just like nobody denies or defends slavery or forced labor. If you actually read the comment I was responding to you'd see that we were talking about sex work in general. Why the hell can we not have a real conversation about sex work among consenting adults without somebody conflating it with slavery and child prostitution?
- skookumchuck 8y agoIt's already illegal. How would making it legal make things worse for her?
- DoreenMichele 8y agoIf you are really concerned about the horrors of prostitution, I recommend you work on the Glass Ceiling issue in non sex worker industries so women have more real options for well paid work.
- djrobstep 8y agoIt's not clear to me how having more women CEOs will help solve the horrors of prostutution, perhaps you could explain further.
- DoreenMichele 8y agoWomen frequently turn to prostitution, stripping et al because it's the only well paid work they can readily get. If career success in other fields were easier to access for women, it would be easier to make other choices.
- capobvious 8y agoSomehow I doubt most prostitutes turn to doing tricks because they had poor career advancement options. The problem is more likely that the skills they have do not qualify them for well paying jobs.
- cbhl 8y agoThe way I see it, the problem is that people think women need skills to qualify for jobs in the first place. As a man, many of my first jobs I got simply because the boss thought I was a promising PFY and was convinced I'd learn everything I needed within the first few days. It's a double standard.
- zaroth 8y agoThis has become a trope. Women frequently turn to prostitution because it pays extremely well, too. Unemployment is 3.7%. Anyone remotely employable can get a job today, but especially women. Women made up ~47% of the workforce in 2017 and are on track to hold more jobs than men in a few years, even with a lower participation rate. Female unemployment rate trended significantly lower than male unemployment rate during the last recession. Women are the majority on college campuses, and earn a majority of bachelors, masters, and doctorate degrees. Women are paid the same for the same work, when they choose to focus on their careers as much as men are expected to. And women hold special legal status to take leave to have children (there is no Federal paternity leave in the US, however some states offer it). Career success has never been more achievable for women in particular. Inside and outside the specific field of prostitution.
- tomc1985 8y agoAnd for every one of those reports there is another of sex workers who find it empowering, profitable, and maybe even fun
- cespul 8y agoSurely that ratio is much higher than 1:1. The amount of camgirls having "fun" and independently successful escorts has to be relatively small compared to the amount of average sex workers, many of whom didn't exactly choose that life and don't find it to be very "empowering".
- factsaresacred 8y agoNot sure if much higher. I do photography and spent time snapping (street photos!) some girls in the sex industry in Asia. For them it's mainly about money. They could get an office job but they - and I quote - "tried...don't like". These are countries with low unemployment, but also low pay, so sex work appeals as a lucrative (and less boring) alternative. Many of this women were single mothers and the money was sent home. Few, from what I could tell, used drugs. And all were very strong people - I think that line of work requires it. So in some parts of the world prostitution is just another job. Is this the same everywhere? Unfortunately not. And I'm sure the industry as a whole is filled with tales of sorrow.
- th01www 8y agoIsn't that similar to all those people that wake up at 6 every morning to do the lowest of the lowest of jobs? The only difference is that their work is not related to sex.
- tomc1985 8y agoHeaven forbid that someone actually enjoy the work they do with their bodies... or have we forgotten that all these activities are rooted in the giving and receiving of pleasure? There are advocacy groups out there campaigning for sex workers' rights, staffed by sex workers and former sex workers, and I would think that if the profession were really so bad for independent providers then groups like this either wouldn't exist or would have a very different character.
- tomjen3 8y agoThat is an extreme case, and I hope that she gets another line of work more suited to her. But lets not forget that most people aren't happy being cleaners, servers, etc and do it entirely for the money. Nothing wrong with that, but in this world only a very small group is happy enough to love their job (and most people love only a part of it).
- byoung2 8y agoExactly...if it's legal, you won't see dark alley trolling or illegal turns. You would see professional websites, apps, and clean, regulated places of business.
- tbyehl 8y agoProstitutes have been on the Internet forever. Legal or not, streetwalkers will continue to exist. The problems, real or perceived, that streetwalkers cause in the neighborhoods they work will continue to exist.
- googlryas 8y agoSure you will. Maybe not as much, but it will still be there. There are still illegal marijuana dealers in legalized states. Women will continue to be 'streetwalkers', because they can't access the regulated place of business - maybe because of previous bad behavior such as stealing or assaulting clients - maybe because they have a STD and the regulated place won't let them work for health reasons - maybe because they are being forced to do 'overtime' after their regulated job by a pimp. Men will likewise continue to use streetwalkers - maybe because they just like them better, maybe because they think their partners have less of a chance of finding out if they pick someone up in the street vs paying with a credit card on an app - maybe because they have been abusive in the past with regulated prostitutes and have been banned - maybe because they want to save 10% on the price.
- fouc 8y agoOr they are part-timers that only do it once in awhile.
- supercanuck 8y agoAnd the needles and used condoms in the neighbourhod?
- swampthinker 8y agoOn mobile so I'll having trouble finding a source, but studies have unfortunately found that countries with legalized prostitution generally have higher trafficking rates.
- rifung 8y agoHere you go: https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/ https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-... "Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows." I find this interesting.. I wonder why people would still go to an illegal worker over a legal one. Is it that the consumers don't know they're illegal or they have some other advantage like cheaper price or a different experience?
- pgeorgi 8y ago> Is it that the consumers don't know they're illegal Apparently it's a hard problem to solve. Prostitution is legal in Germany, but still far from "accepted" as regular work. There are attempts at having the workers register themselves plus regular check ups (which they're not too keen on, because when the political landscape changes, being part of some database isn't a good thing. Plus, being in a database might expose their line of work that they normally don't point a spotlight on in their regular life), at requiring their customers to report suspect cases (but not all customers are interested in having their pastime exposed like that, and also how are they supposed to detect these?). Every attempt at a solution (without guarantee of success) creates new problems because it's a volatile environment all around. Illegal workers being immigrants, they are unfamiliar with the law, at risk of deportation (so the protections legal workers theoretically have don't apply to them in whole), and they're also not very keen on their families learning how they made the money that was sent back every month (no, it wasn't by waiting tables). Also, with mafia-like structures trafficking them, blowing the whistle might reduce life expectation for them and their families back home. There's little room for them to help themselves once in the situation.
- sathackr 8y agoSo the signs are there so that the police have probable cause to stop someone that they otherwise wouldn't have probable cause to stop. Does anyone else see a problem with making otherwise perfectly legal and safe behavior(turning on to a side street) illegal just to legalize an otherwise unconstitutional traffic stop? Seems like another slippery slope we ought not to be sliding down.
- closeparen 8y agoThe government is required to respect privacy, not to be stupid. An area's status as a crime hotspot can reasonably cast suspicion on those visiting it late at night.
- craftyguy 8y ago> The government is required to respect privacy, not to be stupid There's absolutely no requirement to 'respect privacy.'
- closeparen 8y agoThe 4th amendment doesn't use that word, but that's the general thrust.
- paulajohnson 8y agoIn Roe vs Wade the Supreme Court found a right to privacy. The fact that this is not in the Bill of Rights is irrelevant, as per the Ninth Amendment.
- code_duck 8y agoIt depends how you define privacy.
- watwut 8y agoThis proposed law does sound stupid to me and not just for reasons parent said. I also strongly disagree with "area is considered crimey, therefore we effectively void protections for citizens entering it". I also think that laws designed to be broken so that you can throw false "should have follow law" excuses once cops selectively enforce it are lowering respect to law enforcement.
- gav 8y agoI live about three miles west of Western between Hollywood and Sunset, a couple of blocks from where Hugh Grant was arrested in 1995. We still have these signs up here, I can’t turn onto my street after 11pm. What I find interesting is that these signs are still up even though the problem they were trying to solve went away many years ago. It seems that there’s nobody that looks to undo changes like this—government rarely gives back the freedom it takes away—even if that’s simply the freedom to make a turn at night.
- tardo99 8y agoSo ... what do you do if you get home after 11pm?
- anotheryou 8y agothat's probably nothing to discuss in public...
- nraynaud 8y agoI suspect you can use the grid to enter the street straight or by a left turn. I know in Argentina I have seen weird interdictions like that where we had to loop around the block.
- ars 8y agoWhat would happen if you just took the sign down?
- randyrand 8y agoIt's odd that johns are described as "predation" when prostitutes are the ones who benefit financially and the ones who least want prostitution punished.
- analogmemory 8y agoI lived in that area of LA for 5 years and wouldn't say it had a prostitution problem. Sure there were some sex workers out, but it wasn't really causing issues. Then again this was before they banned backpage/craiglist
- jamisteven 8y agoThis reminds me of when San Fran proposed putting a net on the golden gate bridge in effort to thwart suicide jumpers.
- emilfihlman 8y agoThe GDPR screen is broken, any mirror?
- coldtea 8y agoFirst, they should ask: Is there a prostitution problem? And what is the prostitution problem? Is it the problem that prostitution is sinful? Then they could perhaps finally come to the 21st century, and the problem is solved by itself. Is the problem that prostitution is illegal? That's a self imposed problem, they can just change the law (like other countries and some states/counties have). Is the problem that society has decided it shouldn't have prostitution? That's valid, I guess, but they should ask to verify whether this is true, before considering it a problem (and before making laws unilaterally. E.g. society apparently didn't consider marijuana to be as much of a problem as lawmakers made it). Is the problem that prostitution is a dangerous and coercive environment? This stems from it being illegal, and thus unregulated.
- tomp 8y agoWhat’s wrong with you, coming here all reasonable and logical?! /s
- Claudus 8y agoIt seems to me, that legalizing prostitution would be at the top of the issues list for feminism. Most of the arguments made in support of legal abortion could also be made for legal prostitution. Furthermore, there is a fair amount of research indicating that legal prostitution reduces occurances of rape. Although I suppose it would increase “liquidity” in the market, and reduce the value of sex to a certain degree.
- mattmanser 8y agoIt's far more complicated than that, there's a big division in feminists over whether women should have the choice, or whether it's inherently exploitative by men.
- DoreenMichele 8y agoThis presumes that only women can be prostitutes and only men can be clients, among other things.
- bvxvbxbxb 8y agoAmerica is doing everything it can to run a Prohibition War on Prostitution by driving it further underground and over-criminalizing poor and vulnerable people (with the other 8 million in prison, more per capita than any other country, save Seychelles, and possibly China with the Uygur concentration camps). The moral panic "war" is lost: regulate and let people live. It works in the UK and Europe. Oh yeah, American porn is somehow legal prostitution with a video camera because it's "art" and "professional." Consistency fail too. Maybe start making lots more "porn" that satisfies legal requirements and then the oldest profession becomes legal.
- rv-de 8y agoI'm from Germany. Maybe that is why I don't get it. Does "banning right turns at night" mean that it is banned to take a right turn at night? As in not being allowed to enter a crossing street in the right direction? ELI5, please. Thank you.
- kgwgk 8y agoWhat is it that you don't get? From the article: "The idea was to discourage people from picking up a prostitute and pulling into a residential neighborhood to transact business."
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- taejo 8y agoYes, it means exactly that.
- rv-de 8y agoOkay, thanks, I thought I might be crazy.
- amargherio 8y agoThat's correct. The intent of the law is to forbid making right turns from certain streets within a certain time frame. In this case, making a right turn off of this street in question from midnight to 7 AM is illegal and considered a traffic violation.
- code_duck 8y agoI read the entire article trying to find the rationale on why this cuts down on prostitution.
- brokenmachine 8y agoThey're bringing in a weird traffic rule so the police can selectively pull over whoever they want who happens to make the mistake of falling in their cunning illegal left-turn trap, thus giving the illusion of probable cause for a traffic stop.
- code_duck 8y agoI see. I was theorizing it cut down on certain circular cruising behavior, perhaps, or the ability to pull off the road to drop off or pick someone up.
- brokenmachine 8y agoYes, it's a bit of a clickbaity title. Another title could be, "LAPD is trying to misuse obscure traffic laws in order to search people without probable cause". But I guess that's clickbaity too.
- lapnitnelav 8y agoLooking forward to the army of automated drones patrolling around, checking thermal imaging to catch people in the act. Cue hundreds of horny teenagers in dismay. /cynicism
- prolikewh0a 8y agoLate Stage Capitalism.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago>the law gave police probable cause for a traffic stop, since plenty of people at first ignored the signs. He added that such violations are especially useful for regular patrol officers, who might not have the training or experience to spot the signs of a potential sex-work transaction. >"We used to stop cars all the time with the signs in Hollywood. The majority of the time it was residents, but now and again we’d hit someone who picked up a prostitute and catch them in the act So basically now that LAPD goes fishing more often LAPD catches more fish.
- partiallypro 8y agoWon't this just become learned behavior? A lot of people that use prostitutes are repeat customers, they're just going to learn to not turn right. Seems to me that the turning right only serves to help police ticket or pull over individuals that could even be lost. It's basically like a speed trap that some neighborhoods enact to fund their towns and local police. Eventually it will move from punishing their actual target, to punishing everyone for ticket revenues. Good luck getting it reversed. If there's one thing government is really good at, it's not reversing bad laws once their purpose has been served, especially if money becomes involved.
- forkLding 8y agoWhat is the legal basis for outlawing prostitution? Seems like I've read so many articles about "stopping" prostitution which have merely moved to another form and continued on like this article stated.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y agoI’d argue there isn’t any legal basis for any law, as claiming so is circular reasoning.