3 ms·

That "in a sense" is just making light of what is literally a falsehood and which introduced a string of them in the source comment: "It doesn't have any proper

That "in a sense" is just making light of what is literally a falsehood and which introduced a string of them in the source comment: "It doesn't have any properly defined meaning ...." Organics pesticide use is much more selective and heavily controlled than standard regulations[1]. Your notion that most consumers of organic food have unrealistic expectations ( with no survey to support that ) is really just a statement of your own expectations. [1] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/higher-antioxidant-and-lower-cadmium-concentrations-and-lower-incidence-of-pesticide-residues-in-organically-grown-crops-a-systematic-literature-review-and-metaanalyses/33F09637EAE6C4ED119E0C4BFFE2D5B1 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-n...

zeroname 8y ago
If the meaning is so "properly defined", then why do we have a self-described organic farmer in this thread, who says pesticides are off the table for him? Who decides which pesticides are okay, what is the criterion that everyone can agree on? Why are there differences across countries, if there is a proper definition of it? By the way, you can slap a "gluten free" label on table water and it'll be marketing BS, but at least "gluten free" has a properly defined meaning.
- strainer 8y ago
  The organic farming regulations are professionally developed for decades, globally. US labeling options and regulations are officially defined [1,2] Very small scale producers like the farmer in this thread have some leeway - this is a feature of your national regulatory framework suiting small local markets, it is relevant to a tiny fraction of traded organic produce. > Who decides which pesticides are okay, what is the criterion that everyone can agree on? You know in this age of IT you can find answers to your questions. [3] > Why are there differences across countries, if there is a proper definition of it? Because it is a developed practical system, its not defined by dictionary definition - it is very complicated. Why are there differences across countries in safety regulations? How well is the term "safety" internationally defined ? Where did you get the idea that dictionary definition of "organic farming" should be able to completely explain the practice. What other well defined terms do that ?? Renewables, Genetic Engineering, Nuclear, Carbon reduction? I think this involves unwillingness to observe context and make sense of terms, for the sake of the sort of argument which is fun for supporting sport teams. [1] https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/organic/labeling https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/organic/labeling [2] https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f1025eb0e6b67cadf9d3b40&rgn=div6&view=text&node=7:3.1.1.9.32.7 https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f1... [3] https://www.ifoam.bio/en/about-us https://www.ifoam.bio/en/about-us
  - zeroname 8y ago
    > Because it is a developed practical system, its not defined by dictionary definition - it is very complicated. It's a bunch of semi-religious practices that were made up on the spot with no scientific basis whatsoever. For you to put it next to Genetic Engineering or Renewables is quite misleading.
    - strainer 8y ago
      How long did you take looking at the references I provided, to answer the questions you asked me ?
      - zeroname 8y ago
        I've looked at them, but my question weren't to be answered. I understand that there are interest groups that have fancy websites and lots of people are invested in it, looking all serious. Just like with Homeopathy and Chiropractic, they're not putting the woo-woo up front. Organic farming has its origins in nonsense beliefs, the practices that exist today are still based on them, even if they're regulated now. Farmers practice organic farming for basically two reasons: 1) To make money by selling inefficiently produced food at inflated prices 2) Because they irrationally and dogmatically believe organic farming is "better", without any scientific basis The people in group #1 don't actually believe in the principle, they just believe in the money they'll make. https://southsaskfarmer.com/2015/01/11/why-im-not-an-organic-farmer/ https://southsaskfarmer.com/2015/01/11/why-im-not-an-organic...
        strainer 8y ago
        > my question weren't to be answered Please don't defend untrue claims in these discussions by asking questions "not to be answered"
        zeroname 8y ago
        It's called a "rethorical question". You gave the example of safety. It's as if I asked you "who decides what safety is?" and you post a link to some standards body. It's missing the point. It's not untrue to say there is no clearly defined meaning of "safety", just like there is no clearly defined meaning of "organic farming". The fact that there are standards bodies or certifications doesn't change that. The other claim is that organic farming is marketing BS. I don't even see you arguing that it isn't. Even many organic farmers agree! So, what's the issue?
toasterlovin 8y ago
Look, have your opinions. But if you think organic is marketed solely as meaning that only non-synthetic pesticides are used, then you are wrong. The organic label means one thing. The marketing surrounding that label is another thing entirely. In the world of marketing, organic means healthier and pesticide free. But, in addition to being neither of those things, it is an utter disaster for the environment.
- strainer 8y ago
  Ive not been giving my opinions - criticisms or expectations of organic farming: the global mature, studied, developed, alternative agricultural system. This is not opinion, it exists. Its actual flaws - thats a different class of discussion. When you just feel like giving an opinion, at least don't attach plain falsehoods, defended later by "in a sense" etc.

zeroname 8y ago

If the meaning is so "properly defined", then why do we have a self-described organic farmer in this thread, who says pesticides are off the table for him? Who decides which pesticides are okay, what is the criterion that everyone can agree on? Why are there differences across countries, if there is a proper definition of it? By the way, you can slap a "gluten free" label on table water and it'll be marketing BS, but at least "gluten free" has a properly defined meaning.

strainer 8y ago
The organic farming regulations are professionally developed for decades, globally. US labeling options and regulations are officially defined [1,2] Very small scale producers like the farmer in this thread have some leeway - this is a feature of your national regulatory framework suiting small local markets, it is relevant to a tiny fraction of traded organic produce. > Who decides which pesticides are okay, what is the criterion that everyone can agree on? You know in this age of IT you can find answers to your questions. [3] > Why are there differences across countries, if there is a proper definition of it? Because it is a developed practical system, its not defined by dictionary definition - it is very complicated. Why are there differences across countries in safety regulations? How well is the term "safety" internationally defined ? Where did you get the idea that dictionary definition of "organic farming" should be able to completely explain the practice. What other well defined terms do that ?? Renewables, Genetic Engineering, Nuclear, Carbon reduction? I think this involves unwillingness to observe context and make sense of terms, for the sake of the sort of argument which is fun for supporting sport teams. [1] https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/organic/labeling https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/organic/labeling [2] https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f1025eb0e6b67cadf9d3b40&rgn=div6&view=text&node=7:3.1.1.9.32.7 https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f1... [3] https://www.ifoam.bio/en/about-us https://www.ifoam.bio/en/about-us
- zeroname 8y ago
  > Because it is a developed practical system, its not defined by dictionary definition - it is very complicated. It's a bunch of semi-religious practices that were made up on the spot with no scientific basis whatsoever. For you to put it next to Genetic Engineering or Renewables is quite misleading.
  - strainer 8y ago
    How long did you take looking at the references I provided, to answer the questions you asked me ?
    - zeroname 8y ago
      I've looked at them, but my question weren't to be answered. I understand that there are interest groups that have fancy websites and lots of people are invested in it, looking all serious. Just like with Homeopathy and Chiropractic, they're not putting the woo-woo up front. Organic farming has its origins in nonsense beliefs, the practices that exist today are still based on them, even if they're regulated now. Farmers practice organic farming for basically two reasons: 1) To make money by selling inefficiently produced food at inflated prices 2) Because they irrationally and dogmatically believe organic farming is "better", without any scientific basis The people in group #1 don't actually believe in the principle, they just believe in the money they'll make. https://southsaskfarmer.com/2015/01/11/why-im-not-an-organic-farmer/ https://southsaskfarmer.com/2015/01/11/why-im-not-an-organic...
      - strainer 8y ago
        > my question weren't to be answered Please don't defend untrue claims in these discussions by asking questions "not to be answered"
        zeroname 8y ago
        It's called a "rethorical question". You gave the example of safety. It's as if I asked you "who decides what safety is?" and you post a link to some standards body. It's missing the point. It's not untrue to say there is no clearly defined meaning of "safety", just like there is no clearly defined meaning of "organic farming". The fact that there are standards bodies or certifications doesn't change that. The other claim is that organic farming is marketing BS. I don't even see you arguing that it isn't. Even many organic farmers agree! So, what's the issue?

toasterlovin 8y ago

Look, have your opinions. But if you think organic is marketed solely as meaning that only non-synthetic pesticides are used, then you are wrong. The organic label means one thing. The marketing surrounding that label is another thing entirely. In the world of marketing, organic means healthier and pesticide free. But, in addition to being neither of those things, it is an utter disaster for the environment.

strainer 8y ago
Ive not been giving my opinions - criticisms or expectations of organic farming: the global mature, studied, developed, alternative agricultural system. This is not opinion, it exists. Its actual flaws - thats a different class of discussion. When you just feel like giving an opinion, at least don't attach plain falsehoods, defended later by "in a sense" etc.